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Punching Other Players Scriptwise - Clarification on rule 2.0: Powergaming.


Liam_Airey

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Over the last few months I've started to see a rise of characters powergaming their actions when it comes to fighting and/or punching other players, this powergame normally comes in the form of an emote akin to "/me rushes X, punching him/her square in the face" before following up with a scripwise punch, whenever I've brought this up with staff or other players I've always been told it's a grey area and that they're never too sure if they can act on it, this suggestion is to ask that this is fixed with a proper explanation of whats considered PG and whats not, a few decent examples sprinkled in there to help players actually understand what flies and what doesn't.

 

The most we've had explained about the topic at hand ripped straight from the rules thread is "It is not allowed to force actions upon another player." but just like how I started this topic off, there's way too much of a grey area here to actually understand whats expected of players and their RP. 

 

I'd like to see it clearly stated that players MUST wait for a response while RP'ing any sort of conflict that stems for RP, giving both parties a chance to actually RP, this is advertised as a HEAVY RP server, punching a player after typing out a /me with no chance to respond is NOT HEAVY RP and should be a punishable offence, I'll quote the Wikipedia page on Powergaming just to give some context to what I'm saying:

 

"In online text-based role-playing games that emphasize collaborative role-play over acquiring levels or skills, a player can be described as a powergamer if he or she presumes or declares that his or her own action against another player character is successful without giving the other player character the freedom to act on his or her own prerogative."

 

"In such games, in which a sense of community and rapport between players is seen as crucial and conducive to the game's overall well-being, powergaming is generally regarded as extremely offensive behaviour if it is not stated in the rules as being a bannable offense."

 

People may argue "well, punching someone IRL is unexpected! If you're in a heated argument you should be ready!" and in a sense they're right, I understand, the problem with this is when context comes in to play.

 

If I'm intentionally provoking someone IC and I'm expecting a punch with the aim to defend myself against it, the example I gave at the start of the thread automatically cuts off any chance of me actually being able to RP that, it's powergame, you're forcing an action upon me even if realistically it wouldn't of worked or at the very least been slowed down, saying this a lot here but this is a HEAVY RP SERVER, there's no excuse for this type of behaviour. 

 

I'll leave this suggestion here just so I'm not ranting too much but the TL:DR is basically: 

 

Explain what powergaming is in the rules and CLEARLY STATE what can and can't be done with a few decent and relatable examples, clocking someone with a punch after an emote without giving them a chance to emote is 100% powergame and should be stated in the rules, if it's not a current breach of the rules it SHOULD BE, we're a heavy RP server, enforce it.  

 

Thank you.

 

Edited by Liam_Airey
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Personally I believe the parties involved should be informed whether they'd like to go ahead and script fight or roleplay it out beforehand.

People should roleplay it out by default. 

Those who type out a single line of /me and begin to swing until you're in death-mode are simply powergaming in my eyes. It's a gray area, but it's the literal definition of powergaming. You're not allowing the opposing party to roleplay back and automatically put them in a position of defeat.

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5 minutes ago, aldo said:

how is it powergaming to rush at someone and not give them a chance?

it's realistic, not everyone deserves a chance to react to something.

Once again, context.

 

Scripwise punch beats ALL, even if I'm ready for it. 

 

You can't defend against a scripwise punch until you're hit and the game defaults to the fighting state, by then you're already down on your luck even if you was expecting it and roleplaying everything, it's powergaming. 

 

 

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18 minutes ago, Liam_Airey said:

Once again, context.

 

Scripwise punch beats ALL, even if I'm ready for it. 

 

You can't defend against a scripwise punch until you're hit and the game defaults to the fighting state, by then you're already down on your luck even if you was expecting it and roleplaying everything, it's powergaming. 

 

 

a scriptwise punch isn't powergaming, you can literally dodge it too

so guns are powergaming as well then if punching is

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10 minutes ago, aldo said:

a scriptwise punch isn't powergaming, you can literally dodge it too

so guns are powergaming as well then if punching is

As i said in my reply, punches can't be dodged until you're actually hit and placed in to the "fighting" stance, losing heath and putting you at a disadvantage even if you was 100% ready and prepared for it, HOWEVER I don't want to talk mainly about scriptwise brawling, guns are a whole different situation too so please don't bring in random topics that don't really relate to try prove your point.

 

Your very first reply assumes ALL players will cheat, if you charge down the street and sucker punch someone from behind, all RP'd out like it should be, the party being attacked SHOULD RP that realistically, chances are being stunned or knocked out and that's how they should react, works both ways, they magically defend themselves? They're powergaming, they're breaking the rules and should be punished. 

 

Once AGAIN, this is a HEAVY RP server, people are expected to RP out realistically.

 

Your defence for punching people with no form of decent RP just seems to stem from you being scared of players breaking the rules. 

Edited by Liam_Airey
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2 minutes ago, Liam_Airey said:

As i said in my reply, punches can't be dodged until you're actually hit and placed in to the "fighting" stance, losing heath and putting you at a disadvantage even if you was 100% ready and prepared for it, HOWEVER I don't want to talk mainly about scriptwise brawling, guns are a whole different situation too so please don't bring in random topics that don't really relate to try prove your point.

 

Your very first reply assumes ALL players will cheat, if you charge down the street and sucker punch someone from behind, all RP'd out like it should be, the party being attacked SHOULD RP that realistically, chances are being stunned or knocked out and that's how they should react, works both ways, they magically defend themselves? They're powergaming, they're breaking the rules and should be punished. 

 

Once AGAIN, this is a HEAVY RP server, people are expected to RP out realistically.

 

Your defence for punching people with no form of decent RP just seems to stem from you being scared of players breaking the rules. 

yea good point, if you are hit from behind you shouldn't be able to magically get into a fair fistfight, you should be stunned.

 

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16 minutes ago, aldo said:

yea good point, if you are hit from behind you shouldn't be able to magically get into a fair fistfight, you should be stunned.

 

And that's what I'm saying, you're 100% right in what you're saying about surprise attacks, nobody can defend themselves 100% of the time but understand I'm not saying let people DEFEND everything you throw at them, more show them respect and let them RP out their actions/reactions, if they're powergaming by defending against stuff they wouldn't be able to react to? They're breaking the rules.

 

If someone sucker punched me IC I'd actually wanna emote HOW I got my ass knocked out to add to the RP, I don't need someone overwhelming me with punches like I don't realise it's a heavy RP server, i'm maybe one of the biggest RP losers when i comes to actual RP, seriously don't think I've won a single fight hahah so please understand where I'm coming from here. 

Edited by Liam_Airey
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1. Argueing about heavy RP and what it is supposed to mean is pointless. You could argue it's called "heavy text-based RP Server" which then would mean the heavy focuses on the text part not on the level of RP. In the end I think the administration just wanted to state that this server focuses on trying to give the highest reasonable level of text-based roleplay possible - this means that things being realistic in GTA WORLD although not being so IRL is still fine (see - reasonable). In the end it's unimportant to the actual subject though. 

 

2. When you emote punching someone, how much time is fine until you are allowed to whail on him? When you try to run someone over how long do you wait after emoting that you try to do that? Most people are bad losers, that's just a fact. And even two third of those who read this and go "well - I - am NOT a bad loser" still are. Losing is tough especially if it's not over naught but actually about something meaningful. 

 

In my experience the longer you give people time to react to hostile /me's the more often they will a.) punch you first without an emote essentially abusing your patience b.) run away altering the RP outcome all together and in both cases c.) cause a report to follow that altercation. Then again what's a reasonable time frame? Some people read slower than others. 

 

And in the end most hostile situations don't come from nowhere. There usually is roleplay before that /me attack which should give you a hint that you should tense up and that your character has higher awareness due to the hostile type of conversation. If someone would push me around infront of a club due to an argument I would drop a /me indicating that my character is anticipating an attack. 

 

In the end you can't regulate this correctly. This also implies cars, guns and any type of way you can attack someone. I think it's fine as it is, I reason that you should give someone at least SOME little time so he actually had a chance to read your surprise attack but I don't think you should have to wait for the other persons reaction. 

 

Then again - if I creep up on your neighborhood, go on a roof and intent to shoot you secretly I will certainly NOT type out a /me giving away my location and my intensions so you have a supposed fair chance at reacting. Nobody here has spidey senses.

Edited by Coni
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It is quite a gray area, considering the script doesn't take into account combat experience, height and weight of the people involved. I'm of the opinion that once a fight is initiated through role play, it should be agreed upon by those involved on whether or not they want to role play it out or script fight it out - rather than just bum rushing the other person after writing a sloppy /me; this gives the person who swings first the advantage even though it might not realistically reflect what would happen in that scenario.

2 hours ago, Coni said:

Then again - if I creep up on your neighborhood, go on a roof and intent to shoot you secretly I will certainly NOT type out a /me giving away my location and my intensions so you have a supposed fair chance at reacting. Nobody here has spidey senses. 

That's completely different. If someone walks up to you with their fists balled up, you could anticipate an attack and react accordingly; you should be giving them ample time to react in a /me - because they'd realistically be able to do so - UNLESS you sucker punched them, but even then - it's common courtesy to let them role play the implications of that attack themself rather than start wailing on them.

 

In the scenario you gave above, the person about to get shot isn't going to be able to anticipate being shot unless he coincidentally turns around and spots you on the roof - therefore it wouldn't be necessary to give them an opportunity to write a /me out for it.

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