The Police Department & You

[Dashing]

38 minutes ago, Westen said:

However at what point should my character start to fear gangs when the majority of them are simply incapable of carrying out their threats? If there were things to legitimately fear - for example, a few months ago it was very difficult to do things in Forum Drive simply because you'd get swarmed by B13 - that was fear. People were scared to respond to calls in Forum Drive.

The history of South Central alone should be enough for your PD character to at least RP fear and have caution when in the area, it's not a middle class suburb, it's an area that's been riddled with gang violence for decades. Just because the current factions that hold an area within south LS don't want to go out their way to shoot up cops for weak reasoning doesn't mean the history was never there. "Fear" doesn't need to be the shaking in your boots kind, you just simply need to acknowledge where you are, which its clear a lot skip over or they tend to use the typical excuse of "my characters been around gangs he isn't scared".

[Guest]

46 minutes ago, Westen said:

I think you have a couple of valid points in the first part, and yes, I have flashed people and slowed them down before saying "slow down" simply because I'm on my way to a more important incident. However at what point should my character start to fear gangs when the majority of them are simply incapable of carrying out their threats? If there were things to legitimately fear 

I’m not trying to have a go at you, but I’m trying to see into your logic here because I can’t see past the ignorance of your character not acknowledging and risk assessing the environment they work in. Police officers risk assess all the time, at what point does you or your character decide that a gang (a group of criminals consisting of felons, associated of convicted murderers, people in possession of firearms and willing to use them) is not a threat? Was it them not pulling a gun? A knife? 
 

When somebody makes a threat against you, how exactly do you react? It’s this type of mentality which prevents roleplayers from seeing beyond the monotonous claim of PD consisting of robotic members. Again, not a dig, but I’m sure you’re aware that community members still have a sour taste in their mouth when things like Henning gave very relevant and repetitive examples of continue to happen - this isn’t new.

 

My question to the leadership of this faction and those responsible for enforcing standards is - what can you show the community that disregards claims of your training program being unsuitable to training roleplayers into being good examples of roleplay in the community? I’m seeing a tonne of promises but a lack of deliverance. I no longer have exposure to see what’s going on behind the lines so I’d like to know what’s changed so far. I don’t want to see or hear of what’s planned, I’d like to see (I’m sure others would too) what you currently have in place to discourage stupidity, subpar roleplay standards and a play to win demeanour.

 

Looking forward to the reply, as I’ve been out of touch for the past month or so.

[Vindus]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Big_Smokes said:

 

We are currently working on a second location to man, but I do not want to release any details just yet. All I can say is that we are actively working on it, and that I hope it is a nice surprise when it comes out.

 

Okay, so, Detective Bureau. We recently dove into the Detective Bureau with a fine looking glass to identify issues and challenges we face. As such, we had to make changes to our existing detective divisions - however, in turn, we have appointed fresh faces (lower down the chain of command, to be more specific) to be in charge of developing and running our new take on the Gang Unit. We are extremely excited about the progress made so far, and we hope that you guys get to enjoy the fruits of our labor soon.

 

Also, one big problem is that (well, refer to the main post) people don't actually report OOC misbehavior/quality issues to me. At all. Period. Non existent. I have not received a roleplay quality report on any individual in months, so all me and my command staff can tackle are those situations we personally witness. Hence the encouragement in my before posts to actually bring it up. My discord DMs are open and my forum account, both here and on the LSPD forums, are completely accessible. If you do witness such things, please also take the time to bring them forward. As an addition to that, one of my guys is currently working on a roleplay quality report system specifically for my faction members to hopefully streamline the process and encourage people to come forward if they witness issues.

 

Also, thank you for the compliments.

 

I am only speaking for myself but personally I found it very demotivating to report a member of PD through IC means as you had to go through the PD's forums and send the ic complaint privately to someone. There really should not be any difference in how you report a police officer and a civilian. In my opinion, you should be able to walk into Mission row's police station and be able to form a complaint ICly. 

I do not necessarily mean that cops break server rules but more as the quality of the officers roleplay has gotten worse. I can admit that I am one of those that do not report or bring up these issues anymore as I think a lot of players are just fed up and at this point just accepts that PD are able to do whatever they want without consequences. 

I'll bring up some examples that I personally believe to be bad, the use of rubber bullets, the way rubber bullets are being used on the server is completely idiotic. Cops use them to try to shoot people off speeding bikes, shoot them at close range and towards parts of the body that would result in serious injuries. This is completely wrong and extremely dangerous and would make PD liable to several lawsuits, I believe this is not only the individuals fault but that they are lacking the correct training to be handling these types of weapons and situations. 

 

Also, the mentality of always shooting, whether it is rubber bullets or live ammo is worrying. You have a tazer for a reason, there is no reason for you to use a rubber bullet on a person that is running away from you, especially when this person has shown no hostility. Cops shooting towards people's heads with live ammo because they flee from a traffic stop.
 

Another thing I have noticed is that somehow every single officer you meet is a marathon runner who is capable of running great lengths, jumping over fences and hard terrain with their equipment as if it was nothing to them.

 

With all of these things said, I am in no way an expert on American police but these are just some issues I personally believe has to be dealt with, in short I FEEL that a lot of members of the PD only accept a situation if it results in a "win" for them. Many of the officers in chases show no regard to civilians or property and basically drive as crazy as the person they are chasing, I believe that the police departments priority should not be to catch a crook by any means, even if it results in damages to infrastructure and casualties. 

 

Last thing I want to mention is the attitude of some members of the PD, when approached with a concern or criticism it is very likely that you will be responded with a bad attitude even though you only want to be constructive. A personal experience would be when I received word that a member of PD was trash talking me for roleplaying an injury which was completely realistic, a member of PD told me that this person was trash-talking me and saying how I was being unrealistic and overreacting, obviously he did not agree with it. I confronted this person and the response was to "stop messaging me" while what I did was explain why the consequences of that person's action resulted in a serious injury.

With that said, I will try to bring these situations to light more as it is not only the PD's job to uphold the standard on this server. I appreciate your response. 

 

If possible I would like to know, what is the process of getting warrants for house searches?  Does the PD actually just look up the character's on the UCP and decide to raid every house that the character owns and rents without thinking about the fact that they might not be registered to the house ICly? 


Shout-out to Timothy Spencer, Robert Fletcher, Joaquin Perez & Luke Andersson, no matter what character I am on the interactions with you are always enjoyable

[Vindus]

21 minutes ago, Dashing said:

The history of South Central alone should be enough for your PD character to at least RP fear and have caution when in the area, it's not a middle class suburb, it's an area that's been riddled with gang violence for decades. Just because the current factions that hold an area within south LS don't want to go out their way to shoot up cops for weak reasoning doesn't mean the history was never there. "Fear" doesn't need to be the shaking in your boots kind, you just simply need to acknowledge where you are, which its clear a lot skip over or they tend to use the typical excuse of "my characters been around gangs he isn't scared".

We used to have PD members eating their lunches in a parked cars in the alleys in Rancho. The provocations of PD was a huge problem for us when we had our faction in Rancho ( back then we did not have as big illegal community as we do now) so I can only imagine how annoying it must be for the people who roleplay there now as the standards of PD's members have dropped drastically.  Even after we murdered a detective after he wounded one of us, cops still showed up daily to Rancho, alone as if we were some community that welcomed the presence of law enforcement.  With that said, we were in no way perfect back then but I am just saying I can relate to Dashing's post a lot.

[Westen]

35 minutes ago, Maca said:

When somebody makes a threat against you, how exactly do you react? It’s this type of mentality which prevents roleplayers from seeing beyond the monotonous claim of PD consisting of robotic members. 

So, I think there's two points here, correct me if I'm wrong - the threats, and how situations are dealt with.

 

I'd go so far as to arguing there's two types of threats - the "you're all fucking dead next time you're seen around here" threat, which, to be fair, is perfectly valid and would affect risk assessments when deploying to that area, or the "I'm going to kill your whole fucking family" threat. What sort of threats are we on about here?

35 minutes ago, Maca said:

I’m not trying to have a go at you, but I’m trying to see into your logic here because I can’t see past the ignorance of your character not acknowledging and risk assessing the environment they work in. Police officers risk assess all the time, at what point does you or your character decide that a gang (a group of criminals consisting of felons, associated of convicted murderers, people in possession of firearms and willing to use them) is not a threat? Was it them not pulling a gun? A knife? 

 

Risk assessments happen all the time - Metropolitan deployments, UPR authorizations, requesting backup to traffic stops. In fact, whenever anyone gets out of a car on a stop, I J-turn and leave because the likelihood is that I'm going to die.

 

36 minutes ago, Dashing said:

The history of South Central alone should be enough for your PD character to at least RP fear and have caution when in the area, it's not a middle class suburb, it's an area that's been riddled with gang violence for decades. Just because the current factions that hold an area within south LS don't want to go out their way to shoot up cops for weak reasoning doesn't mean the history was never there. "Fear" doesn't need to be the shaking in your boots kind, you just simply need to acknowledge where you are, which its clear a lot skip over or they tend to use the typical excuse of "my characters been around gangs he isn't scared".

Missed this originally, apologies, but, if we're classing fear RP as allowing past experience to affect our responses to situations, then, yes. When fearing gang threats was originally brought up, I was under the impression that it meant my character had to be "scared" as opposed to simply allowing it to affect them and that's my mistake.

 

 

 

Edited October 25, 2019 by Westen

[Bryar1427]

47 minutes ago, Maca said:

I’m not trying to have a go at you, but I’m trying to see into your logic here because I can’t see past the ignorance of your character not acknowledging and risk assessing the environment they work in. Police officers risk assess all the time, at what point does you or your character decide that a gang (a group of criminals consisting of felons, associated of convicted murderers, people in possession of firearms and willing to use them) is not a threat? Was it them not pulling a gun? A knife? 
 

When somebody makes a threat against you, how exactly do you react? It’s this type of mentality which prevents roleplayers from seeing beyond the monotonous claim of PD consisting of robotic members. Again, not a dig, but I’m sure you’re aware that community members still have a sour taste in their mouth when things like Henning gave very relevant and repetitive examples of continue to happen - this isn’t new.

 

My question to the leadership of this faction and those responsible for enforcing standards is - what can you show the community that disregards claims of your training program being unsuitable to training roleplayers into being good examples of roleplay in the community? I’m seeing a tonne of promises but a lack of deliverance. I no longer have exposure to see what’s going on behind the lines so I’d like to know what’s changed so far. I don’t want to see or hear of what’s planned, I’d like to see (I’m sure others would too) what you currently have in place to discourage stupidity, subpar roleplay standards and a play to win demeanour.

 

Looking forward to the reply, as I’ve been out of touch for the past month or so.

I want to touch on this a bit.  I've been in PD for a total of four months or so - I resigned in July and just reinstated a little over a week ago.  I refuse to fall into the robocop category - I bring life to all of my characters.  Below is a direct quote from my reinstatement request:

Quote

Well, Myles, being the shady bastard that he was, ended up getting CK'd after his resignation. Can't exactly roleplay a zombie cop. I'm hoping to bring a new character back to PD with a new character style/mindset. Doesn't mean I'm going the robocop way, I still want to RP a real person and not some walking encyclopedia of penal codes and protocol.

Now, I'm known for entering the ghetto.  Quite often, actually.  It's hard not to when my character's whole backstory is based on growing up in the carson avenue area, being affiliated - not in, but affiliated - with gangs growing up, getting set straight and turning his life around to become an officer.  I still live in the area, as well.  BUT, I never go into the area without letting the department know over the radio, which usually gets another officer to slide my way in case anything goes wrong.  I'm not saying that I don't RPly "fear" gangs, but I'd say I know enough about them to keep myself safe.  What gang is going to shoot me down in the middle of a street in broad daylight?  I know I'm safe there, it's going home after hours that you gotta worry about.  I sent a text to an officer last night saying I was being scouted and wanted him in the area, even though I was off duty.

 

Don't give all of PD a bad name because some people don't want to RP a realistic character.  Some of us put time and effort into who our characters are.  How many people RP a middle-aged cop who just wants to retire?  My /examine literally says "always appears tired of the bullshit" because I want you to get a feel for how my character looks and acts at all times.  Not all of the blame can land on PD, either. RP a realistic gang.  Don't just yell at officers to leave when they roll up.  That gives them more of a reason to stick in the area - we get provoked daily.  

Edited October 25, 2019 by Bryar1427

[Keane]

To touch on the cops RPing fear thing, it's something that's mandatory. Cops in the United States get shot at or stabbed by regular people on a daily basis. I saw two bodycam videos recently that stand out. One cop had just holstered his gun, only for the person to turn around, pull out a concealed machete and swing at him. If the cop didn't have an instant reaction to jump out of the way, he would have been killed. Another example is during a traffic stop on a truck. The cop was explaining the citation and the person grabbed a screwdriver, jumped out of the truck and stabbed the cop in the neck/shoulder area all in the space of about a second. That cop ended up in the ICU because of a screwdriver.

As a disclaimer, this is my own opinion on the topic and it doesn't represent any of the staff team's opinions. The post isn't targeted at any individuals, but it's something based on what I've seen in general.
 

The reason why we have so many cops shooting people in the US compared to every other country is because US cops are constantly on edge and expecting to get shot at. Traffic stops and domestic abuse calls frequently injure and kill the cops at them. Cops get killed when responding with lights and sirens because of either their own driving mistakes or someone not yielding to their sirens. Cops even crash into each other and get severely injured when responding to calls. Roleplaying fear should be mandatory for every cop in every situation. It's how they're taught over the average of 6 months in the academy and average of one or two years in field training. As a cop in the US, it's entirely possible to get killed before a weapon can be unholstered or a panic button pressed. That reality needs to be considered. This is drilled into probationary cops before they have a chance to patrol without being supervised by a cop with many years of experience. The next traffic stop you do could be one where the driver shoots you with a shotgun. A trespassing call could be someone willing to swing a knife at a cop and kill them, knowing it would also get them killed. 

The examples I gave were of civilians that are willing to kill police officers. Gang members are typically more violent, especially where they live. Sure, the DM rule gives cops a degree of protection for the blatant poor reasons to shoot but you can't base your character's attitude on the DM rule. There was a lot of complaints and controversy when I punished two cops after they got shot and killed in Jamestown because they felt like it was a poor reason to get shot at. Sure they faced some consequences when they died but they got to respawn and continue patrol after. Knowing that you'll respawn and continue patrolling after should never be taken into consideration when making an IC decision. 

 

Why would your character frequent this area? A minor violation happens and your character is on solo patrol, would your character step out to deal with it? Would your character get a bunch of additional resources on scene just to deal with something minor? How does your character acting the way they do around a gang area contribute to an enjoyable roleplay environment for the people in the area and the cops that respond? Or the LSFD members that usually roleplay fear and stay back until there's enough cops on scene to provide a safe environment for them to treat someone? Every member of the community is expected to not only abide by the server rules, but contribute to a realistic and enjoyable environment for others. 

The point I'm trying to make is that the entire faction could benefit from doing research into how American policing works. American cops are extremely paranoid and fearful when they respond to calls. Some of them even don't respond to dangerous calls. Maca gave a good example and I'll give another. There was a school shooting and the deputy who was assigned to the school ran outside and did not deal with the single shooter. The responding deputies found the shooter off the campus and arrested him. That deputy knew that people were dying and that he'd likely lose his job as a result of him not acting but he still didn't act. I'm not saying that those roleplaying cops here should show that kind of fear, but it's an example of what can happen. That cop just wanted to go home to his family.

There should be a bigger emphasis on learning laws relevant to their positions too. I don't expect every Police Officer I to have enough legal knowledge to become a lawyer in the US, but some of the stuff taught to SLOs during their sergeant training could be taught during field training instead. There's a guide that lists a bunch of important Supreme Court cases in the PD forum's guide section that could be condensed and taught. While people might initially complain about having to learn too much, it's something that's mandatory for the server. Members of illegal factions have to put in days of research to make sure their factions get approved and each member has to do their own research to make sure their characters meet the standard we expect. Members of the PD should be no different. 

 

[Guest]

That was very insightful and down to a tee, Keane. I hope many members of the LSPD can take advice like this and apply it to their faction, even if they aren’t being taught it.

 

@Bryar1427 I respect that you roleplay a person with a decent background of development. However, there is something you really need to be taking into account as it appears that you may be mistaken with the whole “who’s going to shoot me in broad daylight in somewhere I’m from” approach. 

 

A fairly fresh example is the death of rapper Nipsey Hussle. He was outside of his own clothing store, Marathon Clothing, in Crenshaw, Los Angeles. Nipsey was shot over 10 times to the torso and head over a minor altercation with somebody also from his area. Over a simple verbal altercation over seemingly two once-acquainted friends, Nipsey tragically lost his life from a jealous, reckless Rollin 60’s Neigbourhood Crip, the same gang Nipsey was from.

 

This was in broad daylight in the middle of a busy strip of shops in South LA. He died over asking that man to go away because he was suspected of being a snitch. Please don’t assume that your character is “safe” because they’re from that area or it’s daylight... you might find yourself caught up in a sticky situation if you cross roleplayers that are hardcore into their knowledgable Los Angeles gang culture roleplay.

[Mitch]

35 minutes ago, Keane said:

I saw two bodycam videos recently that stand out

While I'm no expert on LSPD or law in that matter, I do recommend that some of the PD do pleeeease look into this channel, it gives a literally realistic as hell portrayal of how cops handle live incidents, such as knifes and stuff (obviously this is NSFW/SFW)

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXMYxKMh3prxnM_4kYZuB3g/videos

 

[EliH]

Funnily enough, as a member of one of the older versions of Rancho, while I can’t comment on cops hanging around Rancho or how they act now, I don’t think thr history of the area should be heavily considered when considering how cops should act. 

 

It might have used to be a rough area. When I was around, it was actually classified as a nogo area for cops unless there was a raid because of how violent we were.

 

Now I’m not saying our RP was amazing, but if a cop was hanging out around the area, we’d first try to initimidate them and scare them off, or shoot at them as a warning. While not 100% realistic, it did create an aura of fear for the area. It came to a head when a rookie was caught on a roof in Rancho trying to spy on us, and he got killed. This prompted a huge SWAT raid in the area.

 

So tl;dr, if the gangs are not acting violent and not making moves to inspire fear into cops in the area, why should they RP fear.

Edited October 25, 2019 by EliH