The Police Department & You

[Westen]

6 hours ago, liq said:

Self transporting is pretty niche and something invoked to handle the issue pertaining to the game as it is given having an understaffed Fire Department faction. It's not entirely realistic. So when there is indeed FD on scene, I think they should be left to attend to victims or consulted if first aid is given and further action seems warranted. To have to literally argue (IC) with officers because they want to self transport when there's an ambulance on scene is very disheartening, of poor quality and very much unrealistic. To have nothing done to them and with a vast majority of field supervision not care for these kind of aspects and barely even address such behavior is much more disheartening. It's why I'm actually writing this up for the leadership to consider.

 

Furthermore, I take it the PD has a different mindset when it comes to attending situations in game. To give my couple cents, it's unrealistic and of pretty poor quality to clear officers off a scene with hurt people so they can go drive around. If it'd be me I'd advise members against that. And it's also pretty unrealistic to look for the fastest way to clear off just because there's 3 situations going on at the time. I feel that the faction is focusing on policing the server rather than role-playing up to a certain standard and provide quality police role-play to the community, and just wants to address situations instead of role-playing accordingly. To put it bluntly, there's never enough backup on a scene and clearing non-essential personnel off to go to some other call is fairly good but clearing everybody off and saying "you got it, FD, gotta go." just sucks and gives me and anybody else who're facing this side of the marble a pretty grim idea of what PD role-players think and wanna do.

 

 

 

One of the things I'd like to add (although the majority was covered by @Cascade) is that the majority of incidents or shootings occur in volatile, very dangerous areas such as Forum Drive or Jamestown. In the past three days we've had three officers killed in Forum Drive, and yesterday there were seven people gunned down by automatic weapons in Jamestown. The reason you'll get cops being antsy and wanting to self transport is because (and this isn't true in all cases), it /CAN/ take a bit of time for FD to transport - and most of the time it's not necessarily FD's fault. The last thing I want to be doing as an officer is standing out in the middle of Forum Drive with only a couple of cruisers for cover.

[liq]

I put my two cents together already and don't feel like i've been given a fair answer. No cop is going to stand and argue with a paramedic whether to self transport or not from a realistic point of view like they did with me. I do not accept to take such things In Character when that's just a clear fault in mindset of the faction members and their portrayal of American law enforcement officers in a metropolis. They can be trained all they want to be trained but it's not their job to do paramedic duties despite understanding, like I said, the fact that they sometimes must given circumstances. 

 

I understand the very volatile nature of crime rates spread across neighborhoods but it sounds like those types of situations need to be addressed in IC terms by bringing in city wide tactical alerts, forcing officers to partner up and a much more broader and cautious approach with high regard to officer safety. They did not portray such fear when encountered the situations I did, and they weren't even in the same neighborhoods to begin with.

 

In regards to clearing officers and having officers on scenes, you're still not getting my point and it seems like ranking people's mindset is also to attend 3 calls and spread 3 officers across them instead of putting all of 3 officers in 1 call to provide quality police role-play. You instead seem like you want to police the server and put as many players in jail. Just because you've been stuck with FD and someone got away with a robbery isn't going to hurt anybody and especially not you as a police role-player.

 

I'd appreciate a leadership point of view. If not, I've just said what I wanted to say and we'll agree to disagree. I appreciate your responses, I just don't see things the way you see it is all. I'll look into PLM to see if it's indeed of poor role-play quality in their eyes having cops argue with paramedics with an ambulance on scene on who should transport an injured victim, and I'll be sure to start reporting people to them for poor role-play from now on. And if not, I'll make ends meet and take it IC to see how far it goes. Interjecting with an injured person could cost a police department a hefty lawsuit and there's quite a track record of that in real life. It's why most cops either administer first aid if they can but generally don't touch a victim by saying they're not medics.

Edited August 31, 2019 by liq

[CloutToken]

37 minutes ago, liq said:

I put my two cents together already and don't feel like i've been given a fair answer. No cop is going to stand and argue with a paramedic whether to self transport or not from a realistic point of view like they did with me. I do not accept to take such things In Character when that's just a clear fault in mindset of the faction members and their portrayal of American law enforcement officers in a metropolis. They can be trained all they want to be trained but it's not their job to do paramedic duties despite understanding, like I said, the fact that they sometimes must given circumstances. 

 

I understand the very volatile nature of crime rates spread across neighborhoods but it sounds like those types of situations need to be addressed in IC terms by bringing in city wide tactical alerts, forcing officers to partner up and a much more broader and cautious approach with high regard to officer safety. They did not portray such fear when encountered the situations I did, and they weren't even in the same neighborhoods to begin with.

 

In regards to clearing officers and having officers on scenes, you're still not getting my point and it seems like ranking people's mindset is also to attend 3 calls and spread 3 officers across them instead of putting all of 3 officers in 1 call to provide quality police role-play. You instead seem like you want to police the server and put as many players in jail. Just because you've been stuck with FD and someone got away with a robbery isn't going to hurt anybody and especially not you as a police role-player.

 

I'd appreciate a leadership point of view. If not, I've just said what I wanted to say and we'll agree to disagree. I appreciate your responses, I just don't see things the way you see it is all. I'll look into PLM to see if it's indeed of poor role-play quality in their eyes having cops argue with paramedics with an ambulance on scene on who should transport an injured victim, and I'll be sure to start reporting people to them for poor role-play from now on. And if not, I'll make ends meet and take it IC to see how far it goes. Interjecting with an injured person could cost a police department a hefty lawsuit and there's quite a track record of that in real life. It's why most cops either administer first aid if they can but generally don't touch a victim by saying they're not medics.

Just wanna chip in - if all of the faction's internal issues had to be resolved from an IC standpoint, then almost nothing would get done. It needs to be clear what should come off as an in-character problem and what should not. If it's an issue of the mindset of the members of the faction that is roleplay related and it's more appropriate for it to be addressed on an OOC level, then it should be addressed on an OOC level. Realistically, medics and cops would never argue at each other over "transportation issues" especially because the police don't ever self-transport in real life. Providing quality roleplay should be the number one goal this faction has in mind.

Keep these two short and simple, yet important quotes in mind:

"It's not about policing the server, it's about providing quality police roleplay to the server"

"We should be winning most situations, but let's win realistically"

Edited August 31, 2019 by CloutToken

[Matthew]

In complete agreement with Clout and Liquicity. Not everything should be handled IC, some things are unrealistic from an OOC standpoint and therefore should be handled OOCly. You won't get anything done as a faction if you always resort to "keep it IC" for every little issue, with all due respect. Things that are IC should be kept IC but when it becomes something unrealistic it should be taken care of.

 

Officers clearing from a scene for no reason is silly unless it's an officer needs help (or code 0, not sure what this department calls it nowadays) call. You shouldn't just randomly be leaving FD to go and patrol, that's not something that should be happening unless it's in extreme circumstances.

 

I also agree with the fact you shouldn't be self transporting. If there's no FD available then just NPC the medics, self transporting isn't a good, or importantly, a realistic tactic.

Edited August 31, 2019 by Matthew

[Big_Smokes]

12 hours ago, liq said:

I put my two cents together already and don't feel like i've been given a fair answer. No cop is going to stand and argue with a paramedic whether to self transport or not from a realistic point of view like they did with me. I do not accept to take such things In Character when that's just a clear fault in mindset of the faction members and their portrayal of American law enforcement officers in a metropolis. They can be trained all they want to be trained but it's not their job to do paramedic duties despite understanding, like I said, the fact that they sometimes must given circumstances. 

 

I understand the very volatile nature of crime rates spread across neighborhoods but it sounds like those types of situations need to be addressed in IC terms by bringing in city wide tactical alerts, forcing officers to partner up and a much more broader and cautious approach with high regard to officer safety. They did not portray such fear when encountered the situations I did, and they weren't even in the same neighborhoods to begin with.

 

In regards to clearing officers and having officers on scenes, you're still not getting my point and it seems like ranking people's mindset is also to attend 3 calls and spread 3 officers across them instead of putting all of 3 officers in 1 call to provide quality police role-play. You instead seem like you want to police the server and put as many players in jail. Just because you've been stuck with FD and someone got away with a robbery isn't going to hurt anybody and especially not you as a police role-player.

 

I'd appreciate a leadership point of view. If not, I've just said what I wanted to say and we'll agree to disagree. I appreciate your responses, I just don't see things the way you see it is all. I'll look into PLM to see if it's indeed of poor role-play quality in their eyes having cops argue with paramedics with an ambulance on scene on who should transport an injured victim, and I'll be sure to start reporting people to them for poor role-play from now on. And if not, I'll make ends meet and take it IC to see how far it goes. Interjecting with an injured person could cost a police department a hefty lawsuit and there's quite a track record of that in real life. It's why most cops either administer first aid if they can but generally don't touch a victim by saying they're not medics.

 

Wow wow okay let's take a breather for a moment.

 

First and foremost; police supervisors are trained to delegate officers to situations requiring them. We don't have the amount of resources we'd like to have, thus we need to prioritize. If people are getting dropped like it's a war zone, then units will be delegated to deal with that. I don't see how that is anything but realistic: In real life the police literally swarm active shooter scenarios and are taken off of lower priority tasks to handle such situations.

 

Yes, it is our goal to provide quality police roleplay. But that also means measuring by realistic standards: If your buddy is getting his ass shot, you're going to react to that. We have previously been given complaints from Fire Department personnel about officers completely leaving altogether, by your complaint I see this issue has been somewhat remedied. It's a damned if you do damned if you don't situation. I would love to give you all the resources we have, but if we don't have the necessary resources to answer other calls, we will be prioritizing. An agreement was made in this regard between LSPD STAFF and LSFD High Command, and I urge you to speak to your own faction's leadership about this. We've had extensive discussions about this very subject and to this day we urge our faction members, supervisors and command staff to value the passive roleplay other factions bring. But if there is IC cause that leads them to needing to leave, I will stand by their decisions.

 

Also I'll say this once and I'll not repeat it again: Read the original post. Threats or bashing I'm not interested in. Do not come here to threaten anyone with PLM. Besides, it's not PLM you have to go to, it's Faction Management, because you are complaining about a resolution that was created at a faction leadership level.

 

The semantics aside; what would you have us do in the case of self-transportation? I don't know who created the rule but it makes sense- it takes completely relying on administrators away from the picture when there are no FD around, none come in game after a pager and it's the only IC way to resolve it.

 

The same argument can be made for the prison system: It is damn unrealistic for my faction to be judge jury and executioner, but you have to understand that we are limited by this being a game environment and the fact that people simply aren't available at any given time. The self-transportation thing was therefore probably implemented to give an IC solution to a very much OOC problem. I understand however your point of view on the subject and am definitely willing to bring it up for discussion with FD High Command to get their views on this issue.

 

''In regards to clearing officers and having officers on scenes, you're still not getting my point and it seems like ranking people's mindset is also to attend 3 calls and spread 3 officers across them instead of putting all of 3 officers in 1 call to provide quality police role-play. You instead seem like you want to police the server and put as many players in jail. Just because you've been stuck with FD and someone got away with a robbery isn't going to hurt anybody and especially not you as a police role-player.''

 

It is our IC mandate to police the server, so yes, that is what we ICly try to do. But we also try to ensure availability of our roleplay to everyone. I don't see the point of sticking three officers on a single call where two of them will spend thirty minutes to an hour of real life time having to create roleplay out of nothing because they literally have no IC or OOC purpose being there in the first place. These are real people who come here to roleplay both in a fun and realistic environment. I really don't see how sending three cops to the same call is more realistic then just one: In real life they're not going to send you more cops to provide you with better quality. They're going to send whomever's available and most of the time in single/two person units. We prefer to divide and conquer rather then tunnel vision our units to single incidents, unless they are medium-major sized incidents. I don't necessarily see what's wrong with that nor what the argument is that you're trying to make.

 

To be fair, it's an interesting point you raise- but not one that I can do much about at this time and place. From where I'm sitting it would be far more unrealistic for us to intentionally ignore calls and not delegate units that may not be absolutely necessary- however, views may differ on that subject and I respect your opinion regardless.

 

TL:DR - Self transportation is an IC solution to an OOC problem. I am willing to talk to FD command about it. I also urge you @liq to reach out to your own faction's leadership team if you have further questions, as they themselves will offer you the same answers I do.

 

Edited August 31, 2019 by Big_Smokes

[Matthew]

2 hours ago, Big_Smokes said:

Self transportation is an IC solution to an OOC problem. I am willing to talk to FD command about it. I also urge you @liq to reach out to your own faction's leadership team if you have further questions, as they themselves will offer you the same answers I do.

Again I'd like to chip in. It's a good point that FD aren't as actively available as PD are, for sure, I have experienced it on another server I play on. In fact, on that server, FD aren't available 90% of the time, if not, more than 90%. But, an even better solution to self transporting is simply NPCing medics which is what we do there. Do a /me then a /do then transport them to the hospital and RP it as a medical service. It's a minor thing that doesn't require much effort to change at all and it looks better on the Department as a whole.

 

If it's an OOC problem, why resolve it ICly?

Edited August 31, 2019 by Matthew

[Dano]

My first impressions/interactions with the LSPD have been great. Honestly some of the best role-play ever with law enforcement was today. I appreciate how they don't jump the gun on arresting people, they take the time to ensure that they have the proper evidence and what not beforehand. There is actual role-play behind the arresting/questioning process as well.

 

I really do appreciate the effort that goes into that, and it doesn't go unnoticed. 

[aldo]

not too long ago I had a warrant me, due to the amount of police(metro and undercover) presence, I thought it would be a huge warrant in attempt to take down the gang but it was in fact a warrant for aggravated battery?

 

why were so many resources such as swat, undercover etc spent on an aggravated battery warrant?

[Westen]

30 minutes ago, aldo said:

not too long ago I had a warrant me, due to the amount of police(metro and undercover) presence, I thought it would be a huge warrant in attempt to take down the gang but it was in fact a warrant for aggravated battery?

 

why were so many resources such as swat, undercover etc spent on an aggravated battery warrant?

There are a variety of factors that determine police response to a warrant. This includes a risk assessment based on the warrant subject's known affiliations and past criminal history (among other things).

 

 

Edited September 5, 2019 by Westen

[aldo]

1 hour ago, Westen said:

There are a variety of factors that determine police response to a warrant. This includes a risk assessment based on the warrant subject's known affiliations and past criminal history (among other things).

 

 

a cop said OOCLy in a report that it was a LOW RISK warrant