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Deathmatchings 'Poor Reason to Kill'


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Straight to the point: Does anyone feel this rule, in particular the 'poor reason to kill' aspect of the rule acts in any way as a safety barrier for characters to say and do as they please without facing any real consequence?

 

I suppose my real question is.. when is it considered acceptable by you as players, or even administration, to murder someone? From what i understand, and speaking with an admin in game is it seems that they view the proper way to handle majority of disputes is to gather a group of friends and brawl it out.. but maybe that would fit into the servers day and age if the year we're playing in was the 80's or early 90's, and not to mention gun crime was still largely an issue even in these eras as well. Or that killing someone should be the last resort, but what about this. You're portraying a character in the street life. Well, then these 'rules' such as last resort to kill, and morals will hardly exist and especially so in this day and age, and again, even more so in a city such as Los Angeles, one that is notoriously known for gangs and homicides, which is also the city we're supposedly taking place in.

 

The idea which i'm assuming is entertained by just about all staff and feel free to correct me if you're a staff, is if for example they allowed Player A, who portrays a gang member in the streets to retaliate on opposing gang member B, and what gang member B is doing is acting hostile, making life threats in addition to calling gang member A a nigg**, and not just once, but repeatedly, or any racial remarks and threats in general, the server would in return result in a war zone if gang member A ever decided to retaliate by firing off shots at that specific player. Now correct me if i'm wrong but all this truly accomplishes from my understanding is granting players invincibility without them facing potential real consequences otherwise. In essence, it allows players to act without any real threat aimed at them after the fact and i am finding it hard to understand how it doesn't perform as so otherwise. Gun crime within gangs is huge. Opposing gang members don't care about opposing gang members and nobody is going to walk back up to that person or persons with a group of their guys and beat the shit out of them on their own block. Again, that is something that was popular and happened in the 80s but shootings are a lot more common nowadays. Instead, you die and it varies between person to person and how they wish to choose how to handle those emotions.

 

And try not to get me misunderstood. I completely understand that it's not common in real life if a gang member shoots and kills another gang member over the color of their threads. It's also not common for someone to murder another person because of their race, or their ethnicity out of the blue. It's also not common that a person will go to the extremes of murdering another person because they stole their food or took a bite out of their food. While most of these do or have happened in the real world, i can understand these all being considered "poor reasons" to kill, especially without any authentic interaction prior to the events.

 

In real life and try not to get on me about this right away after reading those first four words because i know real life is not exactly comparable to a server with hardly 300 players, but instead to the point: What is comparable is that we are trying to portray real life to the highest bar and that should include gang activity in the modern day, and people die over petty disputes in that day to day life. It's a common occurrence and it's a lot more common with gangs and gang related homicides. and personally my belief is committing acts of murder or any violence alone is petty at the end of the day, so to make this apart of the rule is to a certain degree, entirely subjective and really only accomplishes shielding certain players from true harms way, harm that is frequent and happens every day in the streets, and i'm not just talking about any street, on the Hollywood Boulevard, areas that are obviously poverty stricken, gang ridden and known for crime and gang related criminal activity. 

 

What i do very much understand is that the main rule in itself is vital to keep the players in order, and to achieve catering to this specific style of play. I know that players shouldn't be running around treating this like it's a death match server and shooting players for zero reason with zero interaction, but what about when a reason is given? and not just any reason, but a true reason? So What is a true reason

 

I'm not saying that if a player wants to act in a way that is hostile, racist, bangs their set and threatens your life all in one is unacceptable.. but instead, when a player is allowed to do this and it being entirely one dimensional and completely one sided is when i personally find it a problem. When that player who is provoked is entirely limited to practically only retaliating in one way, which isn't a, or the, real threat to that player, and that threat being the opposing players life. Players should be able to say and act how they please, but they should also be aware of their actions because actions should have real consequences, and death should always be a factor for situations like this in the street life and it shouldn't be viewed as poor, and players shouldn't feel entitled to /report because their character wanted to act like they can't get touched, because in the streets, anybody can get touched and that seems to not be understood by some players. 

 

Gang members should instead be playing a lot more street smart if that's how they choose to play their character to avoid possible conflict and potential repercussion as a result of their actions or their words. Instead, it seems what we have now is players who can act how they wish and know they can't get touched by a bullet or die in any way when it's all said and done. It seems to me they know that if they do, if they die, they will apparently consider it a poor reason, even though they acted out the way they did and went to extremes and realistically gave a reason. If anything this truly screams some players not being able to handle losing and will constantly resort to finding any way to make sure their death wasn't a product of rule breaking.

 

I also personally believe life is completely undervalued on this server. If a player doesn't want to die, they shouldn't say or do things that could otherwise put their lives at risk. That risk increases especially if they're portraying a gang member and aiming those actions or words at another gang member, and if they don't want to die but still say or do certain things that would realistically put them in danger, then after the confrontation they should be moving a lot smarter in the streets. 

 

So, two main questions:

  1. When do you find it's acceptable to shoot someone? Or, When is retaliation through murder acceptable?
  2. What is a true reason that can be given to kill another player? This reason should factor in and appropriately attribute the servers current cycle of life and death as well. 


This is not made out of spite, but rather to gather other peoples opinion on this matter as i was unable to get anything nearly meaningful out of the admin i spoke with. I would rather have a discussion surrounding this then make a staff report as they suggest, and something about an admin telling me to make a staff report on them when they have good faith and know it's just a waste of the users time just comes off as very snide.

 

"What happened"

"That's against the rules" or "That's not a good reason"

while proceeding to ajail the user and not saying anything afterwards.

 

Admins should be trying to hopefully provide better insight and clarity to the player and help them understand and answer any questions a player may have regarding a report incident made on them. Making this will hopefully provide again, better clarity and understanding on two questions that an admin was incapable of assisting me, as a player with. Just to make it clear, i say this in the least offensive way possible. 

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From what I imagine, the real reason that snippet of the rule exists is because, like you said, people don't handle consequences. When I was admin, I was all for acting out your impulses and being stupid IC, yet no one was willing to accept the consequences, which would be a Ck. The difference is in real life, the people that do the reckless actions 99% of the time also face their own demise, yet people in the game want all the fun but none of the risk. 

But that also leads to the debate of mix of realism and knowing you're in a game, you can't just have everyone on CK death row and their first death is a Ck, so it takes an admin generally to decide if the circumstances that lead to the death make sense. 

Just my insight, I'm no longer an admin, so it's only my opinion. 

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1 . When do you find it's acceptable to shoot someone? Or, When is retaliation through murder acceptable?

This one largely depends on the character itself. A bartender or a cinema employee won't go buying guns over an insult just to shoot someone. A gang member however can and most likely will pull a gun over an insult. That of course leads us to 3rd question, what would be the consequences for such.

 

2 . What is a true reason that can be given to kill another player? This reason should factor in and appropriately attribute the servers current cycle of life and death as well. 

Normally people takes lives over quite wide range of reasons, this depends on how moderated it shall be. Given we all are here to have fun, roleplaying our characters and the last thing we want is to have our character killed right? Unlike the real word, here we can moderate the entire thing. If by killing a player you mean a PK, theeen those are pretty common. And no if someone tells you it is unrealistic to kill someone over an insult, it is not. It is uncommon yes, but It is more realistic than people may imagine. However at most of cases people don't use guns.



Edited by Engelbert
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25 minutes ago, Engelbert said:

1 . When do you find it's acceptable to shoot someone? Or, When is retaliation through murder acceptable?

This one largely depends on the character itself. A bartender or a cinema employee won't go buying guns over an insult just to shoot someone. A gang member however can and most likely will pull a gun over an insult. That of course leads us to 3rd question, what would be the consequences for such.

 



SO MUCH THIS!

 

If there are clear indications of someone being a gang member or you know someone who is with a mob and you a simple civilian still just insult him out of the blue then don't be surprised if you get killed over it. But at the same time it won't give the gang members permission to go around and insult every other civilian they see.

 

And if two simple civilians escalate their obvious discomfort with each other into insults and then decide to fight it out then there is no reason to go after each other with guns on the next round. At least there should be some further escalation of things through other means - like start with small time damages to each other properties from either side, fake calls to the police and then just maybe as the last resort over a long period of escalation have the death as the ultimate revenge.

 

 

 

 

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5 hours ago, 1357 said:
  • When do you find it's acceptable to shoot someone? Or, When is retaliation through murder acceptable?
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When all options have failed and theres no other choice. And no, just because you punched a guy, that doesn't mean you need to murder him in cold blood. 

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1. When do you find it's acceptable to shoot someone? Or, When is retaliation through murder acceptable?

This actually happened to me today, a random person came into the middle of our hood on a BMX and when told to fuck off without any actual threat of violence apart from some minor racial abuse, the person decided to come back and try and murder me over it, performing a drive-by on his BMX. This sort of behavior is what I see as unacceptable. 

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3 hours ago, Yazum said:

From what I imagine, the real reason that snippet of the rule exists is because, like you said, people don't handle consequences. When I was admin, I was all for acting out your impulses and being stupid IC, yet no one was willing to accept the consequences, which would be a Ck. The difference is in real life, the people that do the reckless actions 99% of the time also face their own demise, yet people in the game want all the fun but none of the risk. 

But that also leads to the debate of mix of realism and knowing you're in a game, you can't just have everyone on CK death row and their first death is a Ck, so it takes an admin generally to decide if the circumstances that lead to the death make sense. 

Just my insight, I'm no longer an admin, so it's only my opinion. 

Well i had a topic to see what peoples thoughts on CK were and it was really 50/50, with most of the counter arguments as things that could easily be solved with the correct and appropriate measures set in place but with me saying that, it's beyond this specific topic so i'll stop discussing it right there.

 

Before i do drop that topic.. i did in fact also mention that not every death or first death should have to result in a character kill because again, things don't have to be that strict, but risk is one of many things that the server lacks in. I believe that if the server management and the rest of the team such as developers manages to get things in order and prioritize a well mapped and setup prison, and DOC although not nearly as important other than to make the time served less mind numbing for players, and for it to be possible for detectives and crime scene investigators to be able to proficiently conduct criminal scenes competently enough to gather crucial information for leads on criminal perpetrators, that it would be able to alleviate and honestly serve as a replacement to this part of the rule almost in its entirety.

 

The max time in a jail on the server is nearly 2 days. I can imagine with the idea entertained of increasing time by ten fold of that and more, and along with life sentences possibly being introduced, that taking these 'issues' OOC should not nearly be as much of a factor as it exists now. Because if i'm being brutally honest, crime on the server in its current state is managed very poorly by detectives/criminal scene investigators and a large part of it isn't exactly their fault.

 

Unless a player is incredibly unlucky and caught by a police officer patrolling the street at the time of the incident, that person is not getting caught. The risk and percent of getting caught is instantaneously practically dropped to 0%. 

 

2 hours ago, Engelbert said:

1 . When do you find it's acceptable to shoot someone? Or, When is retaliation through murder acceptable?

This one largely depends on the character itself. A bartender or a cinema employee won't go buying guns over an insult just to shoot someone. A gang member however can and most likely will pull a gun over an insult. That of course leads us to 3rd question, what would be the consequences for such.

 

2 . What is a true reason that can be given to kill another player? This reason should factor in and appropriately attribute the servers current cycle of life and death as well. 

Normally people takes lives over quite wide range of reasons, this depends on how moderated it shall be. Given we all are here to have fun, roleplaying our characters and the last thing we want is to have our character killed right? Unlike the real word, here we can moderate the entire thing. If by killing a player you mean a PK, theeen those are pretty common. And no if someone tells you it is unrealistic to kill someone over an insult, it is not. It is uncommon yes, but It is more realistic than people may imagine. However at most of cases people don't use guns.



1. Yes completely for the first part and that's kind of where i was trying to get at but that part slipped my mind while writing it out in regard to the comparison of a bartender or the average hard working citizen to a gang member and how both would generally react to similar situations and you're right on that and the reason why that is true is because most of these types of people are just average people whose upbringing was a lot less stressful, violent and even in worst cases traumatic for obvious reasons but that's not to say that the average person isn't also going to potentially have mental issues or anger problems which are also obviously very much a thing should be something to take into consideration.

 

2. Well for the second part when you said that PK's are common and they are, that's what really sways me. That at the end of it all, a player is truly not losing anything of significance other than their own pride, and i think it's a large part of where the issue stems and that should change. Some of these people are taking losses ic to heart and treat role play oddly enough on an ooc scale competitively. It's not as if they have just lost all of their development on their character, of which includes all of their assets, but i can see how it would create a bigger shit storm. Again, it should really change.

 

I also don't see how or think it would turn the server into a war zone. I f anything, i think that hypothetically if gang related homicides did turn the server into a quote on quote 'war zone', that it should be handled IC. Police, detectives, investigators, should all be taking part in finding ways to reduce crime and locking up those responsible, while also creating legal conspiracy cases on those they suspect who are committing the crimes. But most of that just isn't possible and it definitely should be and it should prioritized to the highest extent to expand on this type of role play for both sides. I think the server would benefit from a well polished road map of which is also being constantly updated with time passing while providing as much transparency as possible to the players, because right now it just seems like a lot of updates are just last minute surprises and we don't really know what to be expecting in full detail.

 

1 hour ago, Mitch said:

When all options have failed and theres no other choice. And no, just because you punched a guy, that doesn't mean you need to murder him in cold blood. 

Well what are all other options besides a brawl and what is no other choice? Possibly that person facing a situation where their life is already dangerously at risk? But at that point, it's already too late and a lot of these gangs work by getting the edge on the other person. If there's a dispute between anyone, and if it's a dispute that involves gang members especially than it should be treated seriously for obvious reasons and all escalation should be considered acceptable at that point and that should include murder and we need ways for murder to be handled professionally and appropriately in character. I am again not saying that all murder should be handled IC, because if you have a person whose clear intentions are just to go around killing people for the sake of intentionally breaking the rules, then that's an entirely different story.

 

If admins want to encourage gang members to brawl it out and try every last solution before resorting to killing then maybe we should also consider rolling the time back 40+ years. 

 

I mean it feels like we're all treating gangs like sunshine and rainbows and the way members of these gangs and their brains are wired, the last thing they care about doing is sitting down at a round table and solving things from there while shaking hands and coming to a peaceful solution. Or, putting their lives at any more unnecessary risk in this era by brawling it out. This will allow one player to suddenly get the edge on you and a chance of them pulling a knife or their own gun, or someone from either gang doing so that happens to be in the area. I would suspect a lot of gang members hardly take their own lives into consideration, so for them to take another gang members life into consideration is unlikely and a real reason why they're so quick to resort to violence that happens to be more often than not lethal.

 

Just a reminder that being shot is incredibly common in the United States, and it's a lot more common in gang related disputes and also remember that even in the older days, shooting at someone was still the first thing that a lot of people resorted to. The rule should at the very least take in consideration of the situation at hand and what type of people the players involved are role playing is my personal belief and stand.

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@1357

 

Pretty much why most of gang interactions end with reports, nobody wants to lose. Well not most of them, but many. That aside I wouldn't be overjoyed if suddenly someone decides to CK my character. For others it may seem trivial but for a player of a character in question it's always tad more personal. Just as they see my character as a product of mainstream automated line, I could say the same for others maybe? Like gang members, what you might need for such character, a gang affiliation, a gun, some money and a house or apartment in south LS or in another gang oriented area and we are set. What makes people not wanting their characters to be CK'd is the progress they achieved, the time they invested into the game itself. Some say pushing for more CKs would lead people to be more careful and reconsider their doings, maybe it would. Also some think that it would only spawn more and more reports. Also I think there is a rule or a routine at least that if PD catches you at a murder, it's a CK for you aka life sentence.

Not sure about that though. I personally think that each roleplaying theme should be considered separately. Gang or crime scene in general is prone to have more CKs than casual, civilian roleplaying. But that also raises a question, should a death in a car accident be considered PK rather than a CK compared to a death delivered by a bullet over a brawl few blocks away? The answer they are the same, but both players will opt for a PK. Of course then there are robberies, I personally played on a server where it was prohibited to shoot or kill a victim if they cooperated. But then if CKs will be pushed through at some point they will be pushed for everyone right?

Edited by Engelbert
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2 minutes ago, Engelbert said:

@1357

 

Pretty much why most of gang interactions end with reports, nobody wants to lose. Well not most of them, but many. That aside I wouldn't be overjoyed if suddenly someone decides to CK my character. For others it may seem trivial but for a player of a character in question it's always tad more personal.

Just as they see my character as a product of mainstream automated line, I could say the same for others maybe? Like gang members, what you might need for such character, a gang affiliation, a gun, some money and a house or apartment in south LS or in another gang oriented area and we are set.

What makes people not wanting their characters to be CK'd is the progress they achieved, the time they invested into the game itself.

Some say pushing for more CKs would lead people to be more careful and reconsider their doings, maybe it would. Also some think that it would only spawn more and more reports. Also I think there is a rule or a routine at least that if PD catches you at a murder, it's a CK for you aka life sentence.

Not sure about that though. I personally think that each roleplaying theme should be considered separately. Gang or crime scene in general is prone to have more CKs than casual, civilian roleplaying. 

 

It's certainly not true considering one of my characters was caught amidst the time of a murder and the time served was 'only' 42 hours. I believe that's the max time due to there only being a jail for the time being and it would have certainly been longer had the server possessed a functioning prison i'm sure.

 

Life sentences should definitely be introduced, but other things such as providing leads for suspects is something that relies on the developers to code into the server to allow players to be able to do so efficiently.

 

I also understand why some players don't want to be CK'd don't get me wrong on that. It just bothers me that players are more worried about what seems to me, their own pride and will seek for any way to /report the opposing player on a role play server, because again at the end of a day a player really isn't losing anything of significance otherwise. I believe both are true for introducing CK's, it would induce more reports and it would encourage players to rethink their actions for the most part. I don't really bother entertaining the idea because at this rate i don't see it happening.

 

It also bothers me when i see these gang members in fully modified dodge chargers and getting into full fledged shoot outs with the police, and that's apparently considered acceptable. I think things are completely ass backwards to an extent. While players should have all the choice to shoot at the cops, we have to understand that it's just another way for players to prevent taking the real loss and instead the easy way out and something even the street gang member with the most bodies on his record isn't going to do. So if players decide to choose to do this, it should 100% result in their character being permanently wiped.

 

And if no one wants to lose, that's understandable but the rules need to adjusted to not cater to these types of players and to vary depending on the situation and the type of character being role played. 

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13 minutes ago, 1357 said:

 

It's certainly not true considering one of my characters was caught amidst the time of a murder and the time served was 'only' 42 hours. I believe that's the max time due to there only being a jail for the time being and it would have certainly been longer had the server possessed a functioning prison i'm sure.

 

Life sentences should definitely be introduced, but other things such as providing leads for suspects is something that relies on the developers to code into the server to allow players to be able to do so efficiently.

 

I also understand why some players don't want to be CK'd don't get me wrong on that. It just bothers me that players are more worried about what seems to me, their own pride and will seek for any way to /report the opposing player on a role play server, because again at the end of a day a player really isn't losing anything of significance otherwise. I believe both are true for introducing CK's, it would induce more reports and it would encourage players to rethink their actions for the most part. I don't really bother entertaining the idea because at this rate i don't see it happening.

 

It also bothers me when i see these gang members in fully modified dodge chargers and getting into full fledged shoot outs with the police, and that's apparently considered acceptable. I think things are completely ass backwards to an extent. While players should have all the choice to shoot at the cops, we have to understand that it's just another way for players to prevent taking the real loss and instead the easy way out and something even the street gang member with the most bodies on his record isn't going to do. So if players decide to choose to do this, it should 100% result in their character being permanently wiped.

 

And if no one wants to lose, that's understandable but the rules need to adjusted to not cater to these types of players and to vary depending on the situation and the type of character being role played. 

Oh right now I remember. When you get killed by PD it's a CK, not when they catch you at a murder. Least it should be. I am still not sure, but someone told me that if you are killed by PD you are most likely CK'd. Though this would need some clarification.

And then....there's this.

 

And this too. Factions as they are, are watched of course. These rules mainly affect the criminal ones, especially gangs.

So technically you can apply for CKing another character, but this needs to be approved.

 

Edited by Engelbert
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