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Deathmatchings 'Poor Reason to Kill'


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Hi.

 

My name is jcat, and I have an opinion about everything.

 

*pulls velvet cover off of opinion*

 

 

Play it like all character deaths outside of official approved CKs are not really deaths, but that the victim's life is saved in the hospital.  Thousands of people get shot dead every year, a lot of it in gang related shootings, but thousands more get shot and survive.  Rp that the victim is a survivor.  That's what I have to do whenever my character gets robbed and shot dead or whatever.  The anti-deathmatching/PK rule of leaving the situation alone for a while can simulate the time it takes the victim to heal.   I know it's not particularly realistic, but it can accommodate the violent lifestyle play while providing somewhat of an rp justification for the victim to still be alive.  Let's face it, we're trying to make sensible rp in a game engine and lore setting that doesn't make any sense.  GTA5 is just a game, a toy.  When we use it for serious rp, we're trying to use it for something it wasn't designed to do.

 

Make an exception to PKs occurring during police shootouts.  If a cop 'dies' then he goes to the hospital and is 'taken off the case' for the time the anti-deathmatching rule says 'so he can recover'.  If the criminal 'dies' he goes to the hospital, then gets arrested, then gets the legal consequences of his actions.  That way there's no getting out of consequences through suicide by cop. 

 

Something else people can do is put a note that their character is violent in their character descriptions that you see with the /examine command.

 

Example:  "Tyrone Jenkins is a 6 foot tall muscular guy.  (V)"

 

The (V) lets other players know that Tyrone is a violent lifestyle character, whose player accepts the rp of violence over insults and other trivialities.  When two (V) characters meet, then they can rp that violence out, and the one who 'dies' really just goes to the hospital and recovers in accordance with the current anti-deathmatching PK guidelines.  That way the people who want to rp the sudden violence of the gang turf streets can do it, but nobody loses the characters they put a lot of time and effort into.  Of course the CK rules would remain unchanged.

 

I personally think that anything less than a CK should be treated as a brawl, with the rule that the people involved have to leave each other alone for however long it is, because the issue is with the game engine (people 'die' easily).  I think they should remember everything, but the players have to abide by the leave each other alone rule.  Stay away from the usual scene (the character is convalescing) and generally make an effort not to be a deathmatcher.

 

 

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2 minutes ago, jcat said:

Make an exception to PKs occurring during police shootouts.  If a cop 'dies' then he goes to the hospital and is 'taken off the case' for the time the anti-deathmatching rule says 'so he can recover'.  If the criminal 'dies' he goes to the hospital, then gets arrested, then gets the legal consequences of his actions.  That way there's no getting out of consequences through suicide by cop. 

It doesn't make any sense though. If a person dies, they die and there's no way around that. At the end of the day, all i'd like to see is more freedom in approach to how people are allowed to be able to choose how they wish to play their character without the risk of being admin jailed, due to some action being against a rule of a rule that states otherwise. Meaning, i completely understand that deatchmatch in it itself makes plenty of sense and is completely necessary to enforce and i'm sure you do as well, but not so much the sub rule pointing out what's poor and what isn't.

 

So if a player chooses to get into a fledged shoot out in front of a dozen cops with automatics and pistols aimed already at them and in a realistic scenario is practically suicide, then that's fine but at a price due to it being fairly uncommon. If a player wants to shoot at a cop, a singular cop and dies, then it doesn't necessarily have to enforce anything drastic and can continue on with respawning as if nothing happened and forgetting anything prior to the event. If a player is in a chase and chooses to drive off a cliff and play it off as an attempt of suicide, then that's fine, but again, at a price of the character being permanently disabled from use, or character killed after the role play is finished. Key word being after, because it creates good stuff. This creates risk for action and also allows all kinds of role play to develop organically without a rule preventing or claiming otherwise.

 

I would like to see character kills becoming more commonly used and there are other people who also agree with that and then there are some who don't.  There are ways to make this in particular fair for all sides too, but the topic of character kills isn't what this topic in particular is about so i often find myself detracting from the purpose of this particular thread itself.

 

I think that this rule is enforced because crime is so loose in the server. Police cannot act upon on it or do anything about it after it's done. Because people die and simply respawn, anything in that nature has nothing to show for either. So it's all essentially useless and we just use rules to mask the problem and use excuses such as..

 

"We cannot allow this, because then players would constantly be killing other people and it would in result turn into a deathmatch server"

 

But it's because the punishment and risk for ic crimes is so low. Few hours of sitting in a cell accomplishes nothing as to how being confined in a stinky dirty cell would for most people in reality. The solution and what is a great start is the server augmenting sentence times once a prison is established, but why should we stop there because as we see from history and other servers faults, that still did not accomplish and meet the goal and expectation of why time increments are being considered in the first place, which is preventing or scaring players away from crime knowing the risk that comes with it.

 

Just to mention this, again, the server already utilizes some form of a court on the forum, there are in fact players who role play as lawyers, and there are players who role play judges, so why don't we expand on that? Instead of how it currently stands? Which is a cop detaining and cuffing a player, throwing them in the back seat and hauling them to a station, throwing them in a cell and adding up charges. 

 

There could be a lot more role play that is forced on a character for the crime. Such as, instead of police adding up this time off the bat.. make it common procedure to throw them in the cell for an indefinite duration until they're able to receive a court hearing and a lawyer appointed to them where they will then be able to try and prove their innocence, whereas right now you're guilty off the bat and there's no hope for trying to prove otherwise with a record stained on the character.

 

All of this time is served as punishment in character for being caught on top of if found guilty, the real time to serve. This would also create a gritty environment where there are plenty of people in a cell now because they don't just get to sit in there and wait for the hours to tick down until they're set free. There will be more people in there waiting to do their time and as an indirect effect, creating more role play within the system.

 

The real problem lies within the ability of police and a lack of a structure and somewhat functioning judiciary system. Improve on these things and crime in the server will be able to deliberately balance itself out.

 

Are you at least slightly grasping a sense of where i'm trying to get at? Would you personally agree that if this were to be put into the server after figuring everything out and having a good foundation, it would be a lot more enjoyable in comparison to how it's enforced in its current state? Someone oddly argued that it would induce a loss of quality in role play, but i just don't see how. I see this accomplishing a few things.

  1. Invoking more fear and risk of being caught.
  2. Time served all together is much more harsh due to having to go through a process almost similar to real life. It's both negative and positive because a player will now have the option to fight for their innocence without being automatically determined guilty, but it also offers and encourages a much more deeper and realistic approach to role play compared to as how we know it now.
  3. It will cause more players to be in the system as they wait for trials and also create more role play, as right now going in there the role play is next to none due to how everything is set up now.

So if you managed to read this and care to continue on and even agree, or maybe you don't which is entirely fine..

 

What negatives do you think this would bring to the table? How do you think we could possibly solve those negatives if there are any? 

 

 

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I think the real issue is that...

 

  • The police have no ability to conduct forensics or investigations, so criminals get away with it unless it happens in front of the cops.
  • We as a community (admins and players) haven't found a way to effectively deter crime, so even if the cops catch the criminal he doesn't stop committing crimes.
4 hours ago, 1357 said:

It doesn't make any sense though. If a person dies, they die and there's no way around that

 

It makes perfect sense.  The person dies immediately because of GTA5's game engine, not because it's impossible for a person to cling to life for hours despite gruesome injuries.   I suggested interpreting the results of GTA5's game engine as hospitalization and survival to address these issues that you brought up:

  • Gangsters should be allowed to act violently because the characters may be violent people who kill over trivialities, without normal people getting dragged into the violence.
  • People shouldn't be allowed to escape the consequences of their crimes by deliberately getting themselves killed.

 

I don't think Character Kills should be more common because people put a lot of time and work into their characters, and it's a pain the in ass to make a decent looking face all over again.

 

Criminals dying and respawning to commit more crimes has to be addressed by the implementation of worthwhile consequences that would deter crime.  I don't have any suggestions about that... but wait, I have an opinion about everything!

 

Implement a real prison that criminals have to stay in for a long time, like a couple of real time weeks.  They could do activities like...

  • Form gangs.
  • Fight.
  • Form a prison fight league that people could bet on.
  • Do script jobs in prison that will decrease the time they have to spend there instead of giving them money.
  • Explore all possible uses of the adult animations.
  • Form a prison adult animation exploration league that people could bet on.
  • Make money selling drugs in prison that contacts on the outside smuggle in.
  • Use drug money to bribe guards to decrease the time they have to spend there.

 

A court system could work, but only if implemented well.  There would have to be enough judges, lawyers, and jail officials to process the accused.  The accused would have to sit in jail until his case was adjudicated, because nobody would voluntarily show up for a court date.  But, since the police have no ability to do forensics, it's all pointless anyway.  It's all pointless because there are no fingerprints, no ballistics tests, no DNA, none of the forensic evidence that courts use to determine if an accused is guilty or not.  It's not like we'd ever get 12 people to sit on a jury anyway.  So, the cop seeing someone do something or possessing illegal whatever, then arresting the  person and taking him to jail is a good way to abstract all this.

 

I see what you are trying to say.  Contrary to popular opinion, I am not retarded.

 

If a court system were implemented well, meaning...

  • We had enough judges, lawyers, jail officers, jurors, and a functioning jail to hold the accused criminals in, and all this was available 24/7.
  • We had a prison with enough guards and activities for prisoners so they're not bored to death while they're serving their time, and it's available 24/7.

 

 

I don't think it would be more enjoyable if a functioning court system were implemented.  I think it would irritate the living fuck out of people.  We're talking about people who don't even want to rp mundane ordinary life activities, like eating and so on, and we want them to rp going to court??

 

It would still be forcing people into rp situations they may not want.  The accused might really not want to sit in jail for days on end waiting for a court date.  They might really not want to rp a courtroom drama, where they sit there silently while lawyers try to persuade a jury that probably wants to be out racing cars, getting high, or mall ratting in Mirror Park.  Then the accused might not want to spend a very long time in prison, and might go play on another server.  This happens even if everything works perfectly.  If it works perfectly, I think it would deter crime so well that the criminal players would be dissatisfied with the gameplay on GTAW and go play somewhere else.  These things all have to be balanced.

 

Jail and prison would have to be really interesting and fun.  It would have to be so fun that players would oocly look forward to having their characters get sent to prison because of all the fights and whatever they could do there.  It wouldn't be a deterrent, but it would keep criminal characters off the streets and not committing crimes for a couple of real time weeks.

 

Someone in another thread mentioned that frequently players only have a couple of hours a day to play on GTAW, and they want to be rping things they enjoy.  A long drawn out court process and prison time could have a devastating effect on players in that situation.

 

I know people can say, don't do the crime if you can't do the time, but this game is very heavily focused on cops and robbers.  People play this game so they can play criminal characters.  It has to be fun for them too.

 

Another solution is to let civilians access more weapons to defend themselves from crime, but this isn't considered viable.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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16 hours ago, jcat said:

I think the real issue is that...

 

  • The police have no ability to conduct forensics or investigations, so criminals get away with it unless it happens in front of the cops.
  • We as a community (admins and players) haven't found a way to effectively deter crime, so even if the cops catch the criminal he doesn't stop committing crimes.

Right, and this is virtually what my entire post revolves around.

16 hours ago, jcat said:

It makes perfect sense.  The person dies immediately because of GTA5's game engine, not because it's impossible for a person to cling to life for hours despite gruesome injuries.   I suggested interpreting the results of GTA5's game engine as hospitalization and survival to address these issues that you brought up:

  • Gangsters should be allowed to act violently because the characters may be violent people who kill over trivialities, without normal people getting dragged into the violence.
  • People shouldn't be allowed to escape the consequences of their crimes by deliberately getting themselves killed.

Also, you don't die immediately on the server. There's a system in place where the characters body remains and forced into waiting 2 minutes until allowed to /acceptdeath. It just acts as a prevention measure from people instantaneously accepting their death with the intention of avoiding any sort of role play. Once medical units arrive, this is where a player is able to determine whether or not they've died. People shouldn't be allowed to escape consequences through forms of suicide, you're right, and if you read my post i mentioned how it currently works to an extent, but also mentioned how it should work all together. Players should be allowed to perform such acts, but with the understanding of the risks that comes with it to balance it out for all sides involved while letting the role play continue on. Players shouldn't be allowed to perform acts of suicide with the sole intent of preventing in character penalties and then also be allowed to /acceptdeath and respawn. For the most part,  this is enforced properly on the server but you still have criminals who shoot at cops to circumvent ic time.

 

Anyway, as for the Prison, it's coming to the server eventually, so again that's a start and they're also planning on increasing time, another step forward, but not enough and isn't going to solve what is the real problem.

 

In relation to courts and believing we'll need lawyers and judges online 24/7 is not true.. Again, it will be predominately handled through the forum anyway neither does it need to be an exact 1:1 replica of how a court works in the US or real world in general. It just needs to be enough of a basis to allow us to achieve that goal.. and we have enough of a base to do so.

 

16 hours ago, jcat said:

A court system could work, but only if implemented well.  There would have to be enough judges, lawyers, and jail officials to process the accused.  The accused would have to sit in jail until his case was adjudicated, because nobody would voluntarily show up for a court date.  But, since the police have no ability to do forensics, it's all pointless anyway.  It's all pointless because there are no fingerprints, no ballistics tests, no DNA, none of the forensic evidence that courts use to determine if an accused is guilty or not.  It's not like we'd ever get 12 people to sit on a jury anyway.  So, the cop seeing someone do something or possessing illegal whatever, then arresting the  person and taking him to jail is a good way to abstract all this.

 

I don't think it would be more enjoyable if a functioning court system were implemented.  I think it would irritate the living fuck out of people.  We're talking about people who don't even want to rp mundane ordinary life activities, like eating and so on, and we want them to rp going to court??

 

It would still be forcing people into rp situations they may not want.  The accused might really not want to sit in jail for days on end waiting for a court date.  They might really not want to rp a courtroom drama, where they sit there silently while lawyers try to persuade a jury that probably wants to be out racing cars, getting high, or mall ratting in Mirror Park.  Then the accused might not want to spend a very long time in prison, and might go play on another server.  This happens even if everything works perfectly.  If it works perfectly, I think it would deter crime so well that the criminal players would be dissatisfied with the gameplay on GTAW and go play somewhere else.  These things all have to be balanced.

 

Jail and prison would have to be really interesting and fun.  It would have to be so fun that players would oocly look forward to having their characters get sent to prison because of all the fights and whatever they could do there.  It wouldn't be a deterrent, but it would keep criminal characters off the streets and not committing crimes for a couple of real time weeks.

 

Someone in another thread mentioned that frequently players only have a couple of hours a day to play on GTAW, and they want to be rping things they enjoy.  A long drawn out court process and prison time could have a devastating effect on players in that situation.

 

I know people can say, don't do the crime if you can't do the time, but this game is very heavily focused on cops and robbers.  People play this game so they can play criminal characters.  It has to be fun for them too.

 

Another solution is to let civilians access more weapons to defend themselves from crime, but this isn't considered viable.

There are plenty of police on the server to act as jail officials, or we could find ways to make jail officials a real faction similar to DOC and i'm sure there would be players interested, but that's not really needed and police would suffice. We have players who role play as lawyers, and we also have players who role play as judges. Whether or not the process is something that would irritate someone is entirely their decision and in essence only serves as part of the risk. If someone doesn't want to go through legal procedures, then it's a wise choice to play and act out their decisions smarter. It's also not to say that the only reason we should be utilizing this court to which already slightly exists to an extent, and trying to expand on it while also making it common procedure for prosecutions is to try and echo or emulate the real world, but because it will quite literally provide certain types of players who truly want to see a somewhat functioning and fair judicial and court system in the server.. effectively allowing and making it possible to plead their right and their innocence. In regards to how it works now, it's completely one sided and makes for no fun. it also indirectly causes lawyers to not nearly be as effective as they should be. 

 

There's a lot of reasons why this should become reality for the server. I personally believe that how everything is set up right now in its current state merely creates bigger issues than it does solving the smaller issues. It's again, incredibly one sided, does not create much role play, and is imbalanced. We should be finding ways to create as much balance as possible, most importantly through in character means which would act as a huge step forward in the right direction. Also, just to make it clear, court can be entirely optional. If a player doesn't wish to fight for their innocence and try to revoke their time or decrease it, then they can be automatically determined guilty and have the sentence slapped on them and be done with it. But with how long times are going to be in the future once a prison is introduced, it's probably not going to be the wisest decision. They very well may be sitting in there longer than just a few days and would make a lot more sense to at least have a chance otherwise. The max time in a jail cell at the moment is already nearly 2 days, so let that sink in and that time ticks down when a player is offline, i don't believe it will be the same case with a prison.

 

Evidence for forensics to collect can be:

  1. Some form of a system that leaves fingerprints on a vehicles interior or exterior such as the steering wheel, if the perpetrator failed to cover their hands or fingers for example with a pair of gloves which can be purchased from a clothing shop.
  2. Bullets and bullet casings.
  3. Making it so there's a chance that a players hair might fall out during the time the crime took place, allowing some form of hair analysis. Far fetchted, yes, and unsure how this one would work.
  4. Criminal profiling obviously and witnesses obviously.

The main point of this section in terms of forensics is, anything that we can touch on and introduce for police and detectives to further assist them in being able to do their jobs better, allowing them to gather leads and find loopholes to solve criminal cases, and to effectively serve as a greater threat to crime is a large part of what's desperately needed and required. Without this, we have a huge imbalance to crime. Small forms of forensics is being worked on apparently, but i'm really hoping it's going to serve almost like a puzzle and not automatically link to players, making it rewarding once detectives and police are able to figure out who is or may be responsible.

 

 

 

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I think there should be some sort limit on respawns

 

You have 2 lives,

You get 1 life every week with the max being 2.

If you die fine, if you die again you have to wait till you get a new life.

 

I think this respawn as much as you like is a shitty way to RP, death IRL is permanent....

 

Personally i think permadeath should be more of a thing..

You are injured untill a medic saves you within 3 hour, else you perma die.

 

Everybody wants to be a cop, everybody wants to be a criminal.. Would you bet your characters life on it though??

Edited by vray
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2 hours ago, jcat said:

I put way too much effort into my characters to perma-die, especially if it's because of some triggerhappy ass on a robbery spree or getting hit by a car because of desync.

I agree with you. There are tons of players who feel the same way, and i'm one of them. We all don't want to risk losing our characters development over an incident gone wrong but the truth is, there's a multitude of possible ways to counter act this commonly used argument. While i don't want to discuss this into too much detail on this thread because it's completely unrelated to the topic at hand, the current system consists of problems itself. It's also not implying that a system where we focus on more character kill centric deaths isn't going to introduce its own fair share of complications. But with just mentioning it's completely possible to think of ways to make it appealing for almost everyone as players involved, as that's clearly always the aimed goal.

 

Granting players the freedom to have infinite numbers of lives induces carelessness. There are a lot of players who are completely within server rules but still hardly take any regard for their own life. They'll often put themselves in ridiculous situations that may otherwise endanger their character. Both Player Killing and Poor Reasons to Kill encourages players to play out certain characters and have the freedom to use words, threats and actions and become completely protected and shielded from any harm that serves as lethal or impactful. It encourages characters to essentially be desensitized to emotion and feelings, and limits character choices in how they choose to act on those emotions and feelings.

 

We're to an extent, fundamentally relying on these to dictate how we're are supposed to play our characters, and indicating everything else is wrong. I personally believe these were made to compensate for the lack of resources back in the day, but while it worked 'fine' in 2008, doesn't necessarily mean it still has to be the best way a decade+1 years later. The experience on a much more graphically beautiful engine could instead be so much more immersive, but only if we at least tried and bothered entertaining the idea on a deeper and more sensible level. Because it's understandable to point out the issues that could arise, but also thinking of ways to prevent and make it less of an issue.

 

It isn't to say the idea is only half ass and it's put into the server anyway. It would of course need to be extremely well thought out with every possible issue that could potentially arise, taken into consideration with ideas to counter act, and much more. Including community feedback to help make the transition smoother, acting as an essential and incredibly valuable resource. I truly believe it's entirely possible, and the main point of what we feel as problems is definitely mutual and speaks volumes in my opinion.

 

Providing police with more resources for forensics, making it possible to experience and solve crime on a deeper and more extensive level. Expanding on the court that we use and currently exists, and introducing a somewhat functioning judicial system which makes it possible for players to stand a fair chance at fighting their case and pleading their innocence, instead of how it functions currently which is incredibly one dimensional, and creating an in character legal process that would serve as 'tiring' and act in essence as a form of deterrence for a lot of players who carelessly commit crime, which would also be providing more enjoyable work for players who enjoy lawyer and Law role play in general, and providing these types of characters much more of an incentive and valuable resource in the world. Doing away with aged rule concepts and allowing more freedom in character decisions, instead of a sub rule which intrinsically shields players and merely encourages careless actions and behavior in general, in comparison to introducing a much more realistic and sensible approach for characters to consider their actions and words.

 

These i truly believe are ways to make the server much more innovative, immersive and unique to its name and living up to the high standard bar that supposedly stand as. It would grant GTA World to have its own identity, instead of compared to what a lot of people may think of it as now and provide an entirely different side of role play that we as players have yet to experience on a gta based role play server.

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I'm not really worried about losing a character accidentally, it's much more likely that a character will be wantonly killed by a lame-rp troll.  Even if every character death was permadeath, the player who doesn't care about his character will kill a character that another player has spent months developing, and then all that creativity and effort is gone.  It's just not worth it.

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I mean there could be a way for admins to void CK with a reason, but i think the default is you die. instead of having infinite lives.

 

What happens in permadeath or full loot sandbox games is that people band together just like real life to become stronger in a group. Not for a icecream social party but because it is nessecary.

Edited by vray
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  • 11 months later...

I thought about it too, but you know that you have to change many many stuff on roleplay scene and probably delete /DeathMatch/ from roleplay terms or it will be using very rarely; of course it's great idea and can change many aspects of roleplay - generally everything have pros and cons

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