Jump to content

Deathmatchings 'Poor Reason to Kill'


1357

Recommended Posts

3 minutes ago, Engelbert said:

Oh right now I remember. When you get killed by PD it's a CK, not when they catch you at a murder. Least it should be. I am still not sure, but someone told me that if you are killed by PD you are most likely CK'd.

 

 

It's only really asked to be enforced if someone suicide by cops to get out of a situation where they are obviously going to die and people tend to pick PK to get out of the arrest, such as trying to shoot 6+ Officers all already aiming at you. Only really gets reported for in the more extreme cases, atleast of late.

 

Most of the time people who die in shootouts with us just are allowed to get along with it. You get a gunfight with 1-2 officers you have a decent chance to get away, force the lone officer to back off etc. Again the whole CK thing was introduced at some point to try and combat people just PKing an instant fatal heart attack with a tazer or other such items.

Link to comment
2 minutes ago, Enko said:

 

It's only really asked to be enforced if someone suicide by cops to get out of a situation where they are obviously going to die and people tend to pick PK to get out of the arrest, such as trying to shoot 6+ Officers all already aiming at you. Only really gets reported for in the more extreme cases, atleast of late.

 

Most of the time people who die in shootouts with us just are allowed to get along with it. You get a gunfight with 1-2 officers you have a decent chance to get away, force the lone officer to back off etc. Again the whole CK thing was introduced at some point to try and combat people just PKing an instant fatal heart attack with a tazer or other such items.

Thank you I wasn't sure about that. 

Edited by Engelbert
Link to comment

People definitely create and abuse loopholes in rules that are made. That will always be the case unfortunately. It's either have rules with loopholes or have no rules but no loopholes. People do use the deathmatch rule as a safety barrier to get away with things that may get them shot in real life. You're absolutely correct. 

Edited by Mantle
Link to comment
2 hours ago, Mantle said:

People definitely create and abuse loopholes in rules that are made. That will always be the case unfortunately. It's either have rules with loopholes or have no rules but no loopholes. People do use the deathmatch rule as a safety barrier to get away with things that may get them shot in real life. You're absolutely correct. 

I believe if a rule or a part of a rule has multiple or clear loopholes, it's probably not the most solid rule. In fact.. i think the way this part of the rule managed currently is pretty poor in itself. I believe that the rule should be able to correspond to each specific situation and not just state that X is poor and Y isn't. Would you agree? It's almost as if it's negating behavioral responses that us as humans all experience constantly throughout our lives, more specifically our emotions.

 

If this player for example is going to portray this racist gang banging character, while making threats towards this other person who also would have happened to have been raised around violence, resent, neglect and abuse, trauma, maybe even the whole 9 yards and whose whole life revolves around the streets, and he acts out and handles these emotions negatively, where exactly is the problem in that? If anything, the problem i've noticed is that murders and a lot of crime on this server in general will almost always go unsolved if not caught in the act, and it's as if we compensate for the lack of 'tools' that the police should realistically have, we instead resort to handling these actions and role play on an ooc level which only limits instead. And it's not just this server, it's every single server so why aren't we trying to fix this issue, because it's not as if we have to reinvent the wheel but it's daunting to see the same issues that older servers struggled with for years, but i believe this community is more than capable of finding better ways to enhance and deepen the role play experience. I just think everyone's too scared of change and would rather stick with "what works" instead.

 

How people act and what they say generally effects the outcome of situations, relationships, everything, in some kind of way whether it is shrouded from the naked eye or not. If a person is going to call an African American or any black person in general a nigger, well that's not just minor racial abuse and when it's said multiple times and emphasized on, it's really one, if not the worst insult you could use towards a black person, and well because that word has a lot history attached to it.. and that history is something not every black person is going to be desensitized to, and on top of that to make threats about killing that person and showing hostility, well is it wrong if that person, who again is also a gang member then decided to shoot them for it only moments later? Well morally of course it is.. because again, from my view, murder is wrong in itself most times out of not with the few certain exceptions, but that's not something that these types of people are always capable of caring for due to the way the human brain wires itself and adapts to specific lifestyle, as it develops and produces these psychological effects which may be adverse, causes us to all handle certain things differently. Like a user previously mentioned, a person who lives a rather stress free life with healthy relationships just isn't going to act the same way, presumably they don't possess any mental illness.

 

Now in your opinion, do you truly find that unrealistic, or consider it a poor reason? Well truthfully for me, it's beyond me and instead of us basing our play around some of these rules that are piss poor, and what effectively limits and promotes unrealistic role play, we should instead be working on making it so it's possible for police to be able to competently and efficiently solve what are currently all unsolved murders in game. Getting prosecuted and charged with murder is no small thing in the states, neither should it be in the server and this would most certainly create much needed ic balance.

 

It is just sad to me, in my opinion, that a player can play this character to say and act and do given examples and then when it comes to bite them in the ass, they somehow find it completely unacceptable. I find it's unacceptable for a player to paint that type of character and walk, talk and act like they can't get touched in any meaningful way over it after it's all said and done, as if they know they can say what they want because it won't get them killed because in everyone's mind for some reason "it's just an insult", get over it. Well maybe you might see, it certainly goes and cuts way deeper than that.

 

So in my opinion, it 100% currently acts as a shield for players to hide behind and portray however they wish without any real consequence. It's almost unrealistic for a person to be able to provoke, say and act in such a way and come out unscathed in the end. In my opinion not only is this part of the rule a problem, but police lacking in many important aspects as well to help create much needed balance, it's missing.

 

Having a character serve a life sentence or months, or years, however long sentences may be is going to be a lot more punishing than a 60 minute time out in ajail, and the best part is, it's all handled in character. Finding a balanced medium for balancing crime. That's something we should be pushing for. 

 

Provide a truly immersive and innovative experience and not the same play that servers have been stuffing down players throats for a decade now. 

Edited by 1357
Link to comment
  1. When do you find it's acceptable to shoot someone? Or, When is retaliation through murder acceptable?

When something they did or said threatens your life or permanently threatens your livelyhood.

Retaliation through murder isn't acceptible just because some other gang just killed one of your new gang members you've known for 2 days, the reason being character development and the FACT that you ONLY KNEW THEM 2 DAYS. (This isn't a specific situation.)

  1. What is a true reason that can be given to kill another player? This reason should factor in and appropriately attribute the servers current cycle of life and death as well. 

A true reason? A -TRUE- reason? There isn't no true reason. Why do people kill in real life? Over turf? Over a fuckin cheeseburger? Just fuckin, use your logic and try to make the killing have an important part of your character development. 

 

Also folks stop being sociopaths, this is in my opinion the BIGGEST wrong with killing for bad reasons, because the killer will go on to have no feelings but good about it OOCly, so they'll project good feelings about it onto their character, but if they killed someone in real life, realistically, you'd be feeling remorse, anxiety etc etc.

 

Let me get this right, I USED to be bad at this on my character Daniela, but she's also had the character development to support ruthless killings, I developed her, I've roleplayed her accurately as a sociopath, and it's been going good. I also don't play to win on her, usually. But on all my other chars? If they kill someone? They're gonna be kinda torn up by it.

Edited by cracked
Link to comment
7 hours ago, 1357 said:

I believe if a rule or a part of a rule has multiple or clear loopholes, it's probably not the most solid rule. In fact.. i think the way this part of the rule managed currently is pretty poor in itself. I believe that the rule should be able to correspond to each specific situation and not just state that X is poor and Y isn't. Would you agree? It's almost as if it's negating behavioral responses that us as humans all experience constantly throughout our lives, more specifically our emotions.

 

If this player for example is going to portray this racist gang banging character, while making threats towards this other person who also would have happened to have been raised around violence, resent, neglect and abuse, trauma, maybe even the whole 9 yards and whose whole life revolves around the streets, and he acts out and handles these emotions negatively, where exactly is the problem in that? If anything, the problem i've noticed is that murders and a lot of crime on this server in general will almost always go unsolved if not caught in the act, and it's as if we compensate for the lack of 'tools' that the police should realistically have, we instead resort to handling these actions and role play on an ooc level which only limits instead. And it's not just this server, it's every single server so why aren't we trying to fix this issue, because it's not as if we have to reinvent the wheel but it's daunting to see the same issues that older servers struggled with for years, but i believe this community is more than capable of finding better ways to enhance and deepen the role play experience. I just think everyone's too scared of change and would rather stick with "what works" instead.

 

How people act and what they say generally effects the outcome of situations, relationships, everything, in some kind of way whether it is shrouded from the naked eye or not. If a person is going to call an African American or any black person in general a nigger, well that's not just minor racial abuse and when it's said multiple times and emphasized on, it's really one, if not the worst insult you could use towards a black person, and well because that word has a lot history attached to it.. and that history is something not every black person is going to be desensitized to, and on top of that to make threats about killing that person and showing hostility, well is it wrong if that person, who again is also a gang member then decided to shoot them for it only moments later? Well morally of course it is.. because again, from my view, murder is wrong in itself most times out of not with the few certain exceptions, but that's not something that these types of people are always capable of caring for due to the way the human brain wires itself and adapts to specific lifestyle, as it develops and produces these psychological effects which may be adverse, causes us to all handle certain things differently. Like a user previously mentioned, a person who lives a rather stress free life with healthy relationships just isn't going to act the same way, presumably they don't possess any mental illness.

 

Now in your opinion, do you truly find that unrealistic, or consider it a poor reason? Well truthfully for me, it's beyond me and instead of us basing our play around some of these rules that are piss poor, and what effectively limits and promotes unrealistic role play, we should instead be working on making it so it's possible for police to be able to competently and efficiently solve what are currently all unsolved murders in game. Getting prosecuted and charged with murder is no small thing in the states, neither should it be in the server and this would most certainly create much needed ic balance.

 

It is just sad to me, in my opinion, that a player can play this character to say and act and do given examples and then when it comes to bite them in the ass, they somehow find it completely unacceptable. I find it's unacceptable for a player to paint that type of character and walk, talk and act like they can't get touched in any meaningful way over it after it's all said and done, as if they know they can say what they want because it won't get them killed because in everyone's mind for some reason "it's just an insult", get over it. Well maybe you might see, it certainly goes and cuts way deeper than that.

 

So in my opinion, it 100% currently acts as a shield for players to hide behind and portray however they wish without any real consequence. It's almost unrealistic for a person to be able to provoke, say and act in such a way and come out unscathed in the end. In my opinion not only is this part of the rule a problem, but police lacking in many important aspects as well to help create much needed balance, it's missing.

 

Having a character serve a life sentence or months, or years, however long sentences may be is going to be a lot more punishing than a 60 minute time out in ajail, and the best part is, it's all handled in character. Finding a balanced medium for balancing crime. That's something we should be pushing for. 

 

Provide a truly immersive and innovative experience and not the same play that servers have been stuffing down players throats for a decade now. 

I’m at work and don’t have time to read your whole reply but I did read the first part so hopefully I’m not missing too much context, sorry if I am. 

 

But, yes you’re right. A lot of loopholes is of course bad. I’ve brought this exact topic up in another roleplay community before and it was explained to me and made sense: unfortunately explaining when and when you can not shoot someone for every single situation is just not possible. That’s why the rule is broad and covers as much as possible with as little wording. After that, it’s fully down to admin discretion to decide whether it was valid or not reason to kill someone, which I’m fine by. 

Link to comment
3 hours ago, Mantle said:

unfortunately explaining when and when you can not shoot someone for every single situation is just not possible. That’s why the rule is broad and covers as much as possible with as little wording. After that, it’s fully down to admin discretion to decide whether it was valid or not reason to kill someone, which I’m fine by. 

Of course it is possible. Why wouldn't it be possible? If anything it doesn't cover enough and is the opposite of broad. It's entirely possible for an admin to get an understanding of an exact situation between the persons involved and go from there using this part of the rule. It's also possible for someone to sit down and spend a few nights thinking of every possible scenario that could happen in real life and choose what's 'poor' and what's not and factor in every single important detail such as ethnicity, upbringing.. point being every single detail big and small, but is that necessary? I don't think so.

 

Instead, the server desperately needs to find ways to create a proper judicial system with prosecution, and it's all possible, along with systems and techniques for tracing and making legitimate cases on crime for police in game to handle these situations themselves, just like it is in the real world. Leaving things like this entirely up to an admins discretion, they're very bound to get it wrong, misconstrued and is no longer the way in my opinion and especially so when some of these admins are clearly agitated, stressed and aren't willing to truly take the time to sit down and talk about it.

 

7 hours ago, cracked said:
  1. When do you find it's acceptable to shoot someone? Or, When is retaliation through murder acceptable?

When something they did or said threatens your life or permanently threatens your livelyhood.

Retaliation through murder isn't acceptible just because some other gang just killed one of your new gang members you've known for 2 days, the reason being character development and the FACT that you ONLY KNEW THEM 2 DAYS. (This isn't a specific situation.)

  1. What is a true reason that can be given to kill another player? This reason should factor in and appropriately attribute the servers current cycle of life and death as well. 

A true reason? A -TRUE- reason? There isn't no true reason. Why do people kill in real life? Over turf? Over a fuckin cheeseburger? Just fuckin, use your logic and try to make the killing have an important part of your character development. 

 

Also folks stop being sociopaths, this is in my opinion the BIGGEST wrong with killing for bad reasons, because the killer will go on to have no feelings but good about it OOCly, so they'll project good feelings about it onto their character, but if they killed someone in real life, realistically, you'd be feeling remorse, anxiety etc etc.

When something they did or said threatens your life or permanently threatens your lively hood

And while this is completely subjective, it makes more sense on how someone chooses to lash out in such a specific way, while also factoring in what type of person they are. From my experience, this is clearly missing and not taken into consideration by any staff at the moment.

 

What poor reason to kill accomplishes, is allowing players to reenact these characters and using words that this type of person would possibly say in real life, while also only making them entirely exempt or in other words, effectively shielding them from any real consequence. If a player wants to say 'X' and act as 'Y' and do 'Z' that's fine, but that baggage should be on them and what happens next is also on them. The server shouldn't just encourage people to act a certain way in character, then only for this player to become instantly upset and immediately /reports while suddenly forgetting what might have happened that may have led up to that point, when those actions lead to their demise. That is quite honestly the epitome of a victim and play to win mentality, and it's in every way encouraged whether that's intentionally or unintentionally. I'd say unintentionally and the rule in its current state is poor and should be looked at and is why i bring this up.

 

Then you've also got to understand that a lot of these types of people in particular are genuinely sociopaths. If one gang member is murdering another gang member, they are a very dangerous sociopath. They aren't taking a lot of things into consideration much of what a sociopath does, such as the other persons feelings or the way their family and close friends and relatives would feel in the scenario that they're 6 feet under, and for them to do these things, it's true that even they themselves don't care for their life as much as the regular person would. Absolutely nothing of that sort and hypothetically speaking lets say they do take this persons life into consideration? Which is entirely possible and plausible, but They just don't care. They only care and take into consideration what makes them feel it's acceptable to take that persons life and act on it from there and to a degree it's not their fault. People have to understand why someone would act that way, and why they don't take life seriously and commit acts that would seriously impact their life, whether it's death or life in prison.

 

I think the server is trying to push itself in this combination of the 80's and modern times, and it just doesn't work.

 

 

Link to comment
On 7/28/2019 at 9:22 PM, 1357 said:

Los Angeles, one that is notoriously known for gangs and homicides, which is also the city we're supposedly taking place in.

Nope. Los Santos. I seriously cant be arsed to explain someone playing on this project since April STILL didn't get around to understand this. Los Santos was based around Los Angeles yet we are NOT portraying the IG-counterpart to LA though, we are NOT portraying the real life america and we are NOT portraying the real life world. Get it through your skull, god damnit. Nervous has given intel on this plenty of times - get with the program. 

 

This being said LS and in general the lore of GTA is a WAY MORE violent world - even compared to its real life counterparts. The rest is common sense - depending on the lifestyle you roleplay you are more willing to cross that line and should roleplay accordingly. The downside to being a gun slinging criminal is usually that you cant endulge in the wealth-roleplay the server offers you. If you got a 200k tuned car and roleplay a gangbanger still you are a shit roleplayer - point blank. But if you roleplay a broke ass, crack dealing, trigger happy guy - sure go for it. 

 

The same goes for bartenders or these model girls left and right. You can't roleplay your wealth and all that shit on one hand but then grant yourself the carelessness of a impoverished hoodlum. 

 

tl;dr: depends on character (nothing new, really) 

Edited by Coni
Link to comment
11 minutes ago, 1357 said:

Of course it is possible. Why wouldn't it be possible? If anything it doesn't cover enough and is the opposite of broad. It's entirely possible for an admin to get an understanding of an exact situation between the persons involved and go from there using this part of the rule. It's also possible for someone to sit down and spend a few nights thinking of every possible scenario that could happen in real life and choose what's 'poor' and what's not and factor in every single important detail such as ethnicity, upbringing.. point being every single detail big and small, but is that necessary? I don't think so.

 

Instead, the server desperately needs to find ways to create a proper judicial system with prosecution, and it's all possible, along with systems and techniques for tracing and making legitimate cases on crime for police in game to handle these situations themselves, just like it is in the real world. Leaving things like this entirely up to an admins discretion, they're very bound to get it wrong, misconstrued and is no longer the way in my opinion and especially so when some of these admins are clearly agitated, stressed and aren't willing to truly take the time to sit down and talk about it.

 

I've never seen a server where the deathmatch rule has literally covered every single situation where you can kill someone because it's literally impossible. There is countless situations which would need to be added and the list would be never ending which is simply just not beneficial to server growth (as no new player fancies reading 1,000,000 examples of when you can kill someone) and it's ultimately a pain in the ass.

 

The standard rule is in place and most people seem to know when and when they cannot shoot someone. If there is confusion, it goes to admin discretion (which are the people who have put in effort and are trusted to make a proper decision on whether the reason to kill was valid or not) and that is the case on literally every server I've ever played on, including this one and it works so I don't think it needs to be changed.

 

Everyone knows that if you're in a rich neighborhood, chances are that saying to someone "I'll kill you " probably won't get you shot but in an extremely crime riddled, impoverished area you'll probably end up dead. This is fact and this is sort of what you've said in your original post. Again, admin discretion does actually take these things into account when one is in the firing line of deathmatch accusations and in turn just makes things a lot easier for everyone. I would never support adjusting the deathmatch rule to state every single time you can and cannot shoot someone as it would then turn a two line rule into the bible.

Link to comment
Just now, Coni said:

Nope. Los Santos. I seriously cant be arsed to explain someone playing on this project since April STILL didn't get around to understand this. Los Santos was based around Los Angeles yet we are NOT portraying the IG-counterpart to LA though, we are NOT portraying the real life america and we are NOT portraying the real life world. Get it through your skull, god damnit. Nervous has given intel on this plenty of times - get with the program. 

The server itself is still using aspects of the real world such as around California's constitutional law, which resides in America and the server is also based upon its, California's that is, culture. Whatever intel he's given isn't published officially for everyone to see and understand, so again just seems more like a transparency issue if that's the case since you have admins saying one thing and the founder of the server saying otherwise, making people have to dig through posts to find something like that.

Link to comment
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...