An Argument for Vagueness

[Crater]

Hi. I'm relatively new here, but I figured I might be able to contribute a little bit by providing an argument that will save a lot of people time and make the server a better place overall. You're free to offer counterarguments or add to this as much as you like, I'm just putting it out for the community to judge and hopefully absorb.

 

Something I've noticed in my short time here is the amount of unnecessary roleplay, especially during player-driven or player-created jobs. Some might say, "How can roleplay be unnecessary?" or "The more detail the better!" but I really don't think that's the case. Let me start with a definition of roleplay to begin, so we can at least get a base understanding of what I'm talking about conceptually.

 

Roleplay is, obviously, playing a role. You're fitting yourself into a character that (usually) isn't like you, playing a role that is unlike you in at least one way, but most likely many ways. More precisely, when dealing with roleplay servers (whether GTA-based or otherwise) you're typically trying to tell a collaborative story. It's the narrative, the interactions between characters, and the things that happen server-wide that make it interesting.

 

If you agree with that definition (and it's by no means all-encompassing, just a brief description) then hopefully you'll agree with my main point which is as follows: you don't need to be the thing you're roleplaying as, have all the knowledge that your character would, or wholly simulate what you're doing to its full extent in order to play your character or their occupation properly.

 

As I said earlier, this phenomenon is most prevalent in roleplay-based jobs. I've seen it happen a lot in mechanic shops, specifically. A customer comes in, is usually handed a catalog detailing many things that they can purchase, and then after the player decides what they want the mechanic goes to work.

 

With many auto mechanics (and this isn't limited to mechanics, just using it as an example as it's a common interaction) they will explain what they're doing in excruciating detail. This is where things get unnecessary. You don't need to understand where or even what an alternator is to roleplay a mechanic properly. It adds nothing additional to the story of either character. The customer certainly gains nothing through that interaction any more than they would gain from a simple "/me applies the chosen upgrades and paint selection chosen by the customer." or even several /me commands detailing a couple things they asked for, in perfectly acceptable vagueness.

 

To the extent of adding to the story, you really only need to include details that are directly valuable to the story. Anything else is basically just an ego stroke, claiming to the world "look what I know!" One could claim you're striving for realism, but this isn't a server that's focused on realism as far as I know - it's focused on narrative and character interaction. Realism doesn't really provide anything of value to anyone, unless you're talking about a realistic outcome between two characters or what's realistically feasible in a certain situation (dodging bullets, for example, would be something that someone might deny on the basis of realism). Defying reality is something to object to, but I also think being too realistic is something that plagues a lot of people's roleplay.

 

I've seen really bad cases of this phenomenon too, to the extent that a line of someone's dialogue had a "[1]" in it, clearly copy/pasted from a Wikipedia article. Clearly not everyone is that bad and some people do know what they're talking about, but I'd wager that over 90% of people that play mechanics on the server are not mechanics in real life. They don't need to be. People that look down on others for not providing a super realistic, super accurate, and super detailed job are essentially gatekeepers that actually dissuade people from playing a character that they'd otherwise enjoy playing.

 

Be vague, when vagueness is acceptable. No one will look down on you for it (and if they do they're actively keeping you from actually enjoying the server without doing a ton of research, and should be cast out).

 

I get that people want to impress people with all their knowledge, but it's basically a circlejerk at that point and actually begins to detract from the storytelling. If you enjoy the expansive knowledge of your character's occupation and want it to be as real as possible - okay, but understand that others may not be as enthusiastic as you are about those topics. You have to realize that - nine times out of ten - it's not really going to provide any narrative value to either character. You don't need to prove your character's knowledge to anyone, ever - that's part of the fun of actually playing a role that's dissimilar to yourself in real life.

 

I didn't proofread this and wrote it in a rush, so if there are mistakes or incoherent parts then that's on me, but I hope I got my point across. If you disagree with most or all of this, cool - let me know why, because I'm totally willing to be proven wrong.

 

tl;dr if it's not of value to the overall or personal narrative and won't really provide anything of value to your readers (those around you when you say/perform things), it's probably best to simplify whatever it is you're saying/doing

[Sergi]

Narrative is always good to give everyone around you a more immersive experience, however I do agree with you that sometimes people go over-the-top with it and it ends up looking just corny. I think there's a time and place for everything though.

 

Also I wanna add, people who start story-telling through /me's, it looks BAD and it incites metagame, stop, it doesn't make you a better roleplayer.

Edited June 6, 2019 by Sergi

[Gryffin]

This is very difficult to agree with. 

Of course, /every/ single player can skimp down on their roleplay. PD/FD could get rid of their forums altogether because everything that goes on there is just 'unnecessary' detail. Detectives don't have to put effort into finding clues, interviewing characters related to the case, so on and so forth, because that's unnecessary detail. They're not actual detectives irl, why should they put any effort into knowing how to do their roleplay job? 

I can also skimp down on my roleplay at my mechanic workshop. I don't have to put effort into my roleplay and my character's job in general because I'm not a mechanic irl, why should I put any effort into learning how to do my roleplay job? 

The answer is simple: quality. My personal opinion is rather simple: put some research into your roleplay. The same goes for people RPing characters from ethnic groups they don't know much about. The same goes for people RPing in factions that derive from cultures they don't know much about. 

Personally, I put a lot of detail into my mechanic character. It's not about wanting to show off, it's not about me wanting to show how much knowledge I have, instead it's about portraying a realistic character. If my character is a technician that specializes in various fields, it's logical for me, the player, to research the subject and be able to back it up in practice, no? 

As for people being disinterested in your roleplay, that's wholly their own fault. I do my best to consistently include customers in my roleplay, allow them to help out with simple tasks(if they're willing!) and that in turn provides them some simple yet meaningful RP. Your character makes friends, learns about a subject they know nothing about and does something other than just standing and waiting. Putting effort into what I do has made my character a lot of friends, regulars, and even wealth. This is my way of standing out and being appealing to those that are genuinely interested in every aspect of their character's roleplay and in this case, this falls under car/mechanic RP. Been going at it for half a year and it's turned out great. Of course, there'll always be people who aren't particularly interested in the RP, they want to just get their upgrades and go, however you shouldn't change your ways just because not everyone enjoys quality and detail. 

tldr: if we all skimp down on the quality of our roleplay, that will bring down the appeal of our characters and the server in general. As the "saying" goes, practice what you preach. 

[Rensai]

I actually agree with this. There's detail that enhances roleplay and creates a scene, and then there's detail that's there for the sake of nothing to show you can type, like writing an essay for your English teacher. Back in the day if my character smoked I used to roleplay every small twitch of my character's finger in the process of first lighting up and then subsequently each time I puffed on the cigarette, describing how it slowly burned down. Obviously, this is an unnecessary and unneeded amount of detail, and roleplay jobs can suffer from the same.

Where I disagree a bit is you might be advocating for too much vagueness. If you roleplay a mechanic, you should most definitely know what an alternator is. I'm not a mechanic, and I know what an alternator is lol

Basically, you should know the basic facts about what you're doing an represent them properly, but not include every single minute detail just to increase your word count.

Edited June 6, 2019 by Rensai

[Gryffin]

1 minute ago, Rensai said:

I actually agree with this. There's detail that enhances roleplay and creates a scene, and then there's detail that's there for the sake of nothing to show you can type, like writing an essay for your English teacher. Back in the day if my character smoked I used to roleplay every small twitch of my character's finger in the process of first lighting up and then subsequently each time I puffed on the cigarette, describing how it slowly burned down. Obviously, this is an unnecessary and unneeded amount of detail, and roleplay jobs can suffer from the same.

Where I disagree a bit is you might be advocating for too much vagueness. If you roleplay a mechanic, you should most definitely know what an alternator is. I'm not a mechanic, and I know what an alternator is lol

I can absolutely agree with unnecessary details in basic emotes being over the top and entirely unnecessary, however as stated in my post above, you should know what your character is doing and be able to explain it.

[Crater]

Just now, Gryffin said:

Of course, /every/ single player can skimp down on their roleplay. PD/FD could get rid of their forums altogether because everything that goes on there is just 'unnecessary' detail. Detectives don't have to put effort into finding clues, interviewing characters related to the case, so on and so forth, because that's unnecessary detail. They're not actual detectives irl, why should they put any effort into knowing how to do their roleplay job? 

This is clearly not what I'm talking about, as I mentioned in my post that detailed roleplay that actually adds narrative value should not be excluded. I guess I should have focused in on that a bit more. Finding clues, interviewing characters, et cetera - are all examples of valuable roleplay that should happen. Does this mean you need to research actual legal precedent/case law, interviewing techniques, take a course on psychological ways to interview people? No, I think not.

2 minutes ago, Gryffin said:

I can also skimp down on my roleplay at my mechanic workshop. I don't have to put effort into my roleplay and my character's job in general because I'm not a mechanic irl, why should I put any effort into learning how to do my roleplay job? 

The answer is simple: quality. My personal opinion is rather simple: put some research into your roleplay. The same goes for people RPing characters from ethnic groups they don't know much about. The same goes for people RPing in factions that derive from cultures they don't know much about. 

Personally, I put a lot of detail into my mechanic character. It's not about wanting to show off, it's not about me wanting to show how much knowledge I have, instead it's about portraying a realistic character.

Knowing a lot of things, as well as realism, are not valid attributes of quality roleplay. You're free to disagree with that, but a story being realistic doesn't even begin to make it a good story. In fact, some might argue that the opposite is true. This doesn't mean you should throw realism out the window - I'm just implying that it shouldn't be the focus of your experience. It's not nearly as important as many other values, such as actually having an interesting story to tell and working toward that with other characters around you. Detailed automotive repair knowledge is not interesting to most people, otherwise they'd probably be a mechanic in real life.

6 minutes ago, Gryffin said:

If my character is a technician that specializes in various fields, it's logical for me, the player, to research the subject and be able to back it up in practice, no? 

That's exactly the opposite of what I'm positing, so yeah - no. The point of your character is not what he knows, but rather why/how he knows it and how it affects him as a character. To the value of the story you're trying to tell, "backing up" your knowledge is unimportant. Simply stating that your character would know it is enough, really, which is where vagueness comes in. Not being intentionally uninformed or incorrect (i.e. making shit up) but rather keeping things to a basic, layman's outline. Not only will it save you lots of time and trouble, but you'll accelerate the roleplay and allow other laymen to accept what you're throwing at them in a more palatable way.

 

If you want to ignore/refute all of that, I can also go back to one of my main points: it's not really valuable to the story to know things, just for the sake of knowing them. If that knowledge is actually relevant to some sort of plot device you're trying to create in your characters' backstories or their actions, then it becomes relevant for you to know that. 99% of the time though, precise, technical knowledge is not part of that category.

13 minutes ago, Gryffin said:

As for people being disinterested in your roleplay, that's wholly their own fault. I do my best to consistently include customers in my roleplay, allow them to help out with simple tasks(if they're willing!) and that in turn provides them some simple yet meaningful RP. Your character makes friends, learns about a subject they know nothing about and does something other than just standing and waiting. Putting effort into what I do has made my character a lot of friends, regulars, and even wealth. This is my way of standing out and being appealing to those that are genuinely interested in every aspect of their character's roleplay and in this case, this falls under car/mechanic RP. Been going at it for half a year and it's turned out great. Of course, there'll always be people who aren't particularly interested in the RP, they want to just get their upgrades and go, however you shouldn't change your ways just because not everyone enjoys quality and detail. 

This part I entirely agree with. Including people in the roleplay you're doing is incredibly valuable, as you already know, and leads to more connections, more avenues to roleplay in the future, etc. as you've already explained. However, I do want to point out that all of this is possible without detailed technical knowledge. If someone complains that you aren't being detailed enough (and I can't imagine many people who would) then as you say, that's wholly their own problem. Gatekeeping those who don't want to spend hours of research in real-life topics that have no value to them outside of roleplaying on a game server is a ridiculous thing to do, in my estimation. If you enjoy it, more power to you - but you'll save time and increase the quality of roleplay if you leave out unnecessary details, explanations, and terminology.

[aldo]

5 hours ago, Sergi said:

Narrative is always good to give everyone around you a more immersive experience, however I do agree with you that sometimes people go over-the-top with it and it ends up looking just corny. I think there's a time and place for everything though.

 

Also I wanna add, people who start story-telling through /me's, it looks BAD and it incites metagame, stop, it doesn't make you a better roleplayer.

Totally agree, seen people type out entire essays of their hand movements and such, no need for it and especially for mechanics, I’m not a mechanic and I don’t know anything about cars so not only do I not care about what the mechanic is doing to my car I also don’t understand!

[Conway]

I agree with what Gryffin is saying. While you don't need to be 100% accurate in your rp you still need to research into how it's done. If you can't take the time to learn basic tasks you're going to be doing a lot as a mechanic (e.g. how to strip and paint a vehicle, the principals of how to disassemble and rebuild an engine etc) why even bother in the first place? Me watching a mechanic essentially do /me mods the car is about as painful as watching some gang banger from Davis come up to me and address me as "mate." I'm not asking everyone to be like me and go get a qualification at trade school so they can do 1000 rp lines for a fluid change if they so desire. I understand not everyone shares the same passion/knowledge. BUT I'm asking them to look into it and understand it enough to at the very least make a few comprehensive rp lines so my character can be convinced that those characters actually know what the hell they're doing.

 

A commonly monitored roleplay is military vets. If you're roleplaying as a vet that saw active service and yet you don't know squat about the US armed forces and how they work (essentially just picking the overused war hero story because it sounds cool) it's more than likely someone who does know will test you and then call you out for stolen valor IC. The same goes for rping as a mechanic. If you don't know the basics of working on a car and can't at the very least make it sound like your character is a professional automotive technician you're going to get called out on it.

 

Again to reiterate: I'm not saying you need to be God's gift to automobile servicing. I'm saying you should do enough research to at least be able to do basic servicing on a vehicle, and to be able to convincingly rp the modifications available in the mod shop. It's a lot simpler than many people believe and honestly as you go you're likely to learn more which further increases confidence. The same goes for any type of roleplay. Job or not. Research it. Learn how it is/how it's done so you can portray it. Learn terms or slang so you can throw it into your RP and sound more authentic. It's the little things that make a big difference in RP experience.

 

As for people getting bored of the roleplay look at it this way. The most common modification I do is vehicle paint. This is a process that generally takes several days for a full open door respray. I've simplified it into an rp that lasts about fifteen minutes max. That should give an idea of how I've adapted my roleplay to suit the server because nobody is going to want to hear "okay sure! Give me the keys to your car and it'll be done in four days" and that's completely understandable, quite frankly I don't want to sit through all that roleplay either. There is a balance between hardcore roleplay and weak unresearched roleplay. I'm just trying to put it into perspective that though it might seem like we're dragging it out some of us are generally conscious that interest is being lost and we adapt to that.

[Crater]

@Conway I get where you're coming from, but I fail to see how certain details add any value to the roleplay.

 

To use your example - the military vet - there's some actual value in doing some research there. It's part of your character's history, maybe a large portion of your character's life depending on how long they were in the armed forces. It helps to know that, because it's pertinent to who that character is. Knowing the exact process (or implementing a process longer than maybe three to five lines) is not part of who your character is. It adds nothing to the character, nothing to the roleplay, and nothing to any overall story being told. If you can think of examples when the opposite is true, please let me know. Doing "/me takes a few minutes to disassemble the AR-15 completely." (or maybe something even wordier than that, for detail's sake) is sufficient, compared to several lines about how you're popping pins out, removing the barrel, carefully removing springs, etc. 

 

That doesn't mean you have to water everything down to the point of ape-tier knowledge or implement an intentional lack of detail. Add flair, add cleverness, add detail that clarifies and emboldens the mental image of what's happening. Just because you're not fully knowledgeable doesn't mean you have to be boring. That doesn't require knowledge, it requires good writing skills. That's where quality roleplay comes from, not from research or perfect authenticity.

 

If you already have that knowledge, cool. If it's important to who your character is somehow, I guess that's alright too - but I'm simply making a case that it shouldn't be necessary and most definitely should not be expected of a player to do the amount of research required to do what you do. This server is for fun. If you find that detailed research into automotive repair is fun, good on you. If you don't, you shouldn't have to deal with people who look down on you for not knowing the details. You're here to play a character that isn't you, that isn't necessarily 100% realistic/authentic, and more likely than not possesses many skills that you yourself do not possess. That's the bottom line of what I'm saying here.

 

 

[Bospy]

5 hours ago, Crater said:

Does this mean you need to research actual legal precedent/case law, interviewing techniques, take a course on psychological ways to interview people? No, I think not.

I agree with your assessment on vagueness until you reach this point. They don't need to go through an 800 hour academy, but they should have some concept of the Bill of Rights and specific caselaw. It could easily be summarized in a manual if necessary. Many players are obviously not from the grand old USA, and if you don't really let them know X or Y exists in the USA, they may be inadvertently portraying a police officer incorrectly by violating rights that a cop would obviously know not to. This isn't to say this is a common thing. Some of the best legal roleplayers I've met were from places like Israel or even Georgia (the country, obviously, but maybe also the state.)

 

3 hours ago, Crater said:

If you already have that knowledge, cool. If it's important to who your character is somehow, I guess that's alright too - but I'm simply making a case that it shouldn't be necessary and most definitely should not be expected of a player to do the amount of research required to do what you do. This server is for fun. If you find that detailed research into automotive repair is fun, good on you. If you don't, you shouldn't have to deal with people who look down on you for not knowing the details. You're here to play a character that isn't you, that isn't necessarily 100% realistic/authentic, and more likely than not possesses many skills that you yourself do not possess. That's the bottom line of what I'm saying here.

I agree with you here. Fake it until you make it also works. I don't think, though, that people should substitute what they do know for what they could learn. For instance, people shouldn't be enticed to roleplay a London gangmember in LS because they know about it more than Surenos. It's not really that immersive.