PK and CK

[HaveADream]

@Smilesville and @Keane have really hit the nail on the head here, I find myself completely agreeing with everything they have said.

 

PKs and CK's aren't the problem, we, as a collective community, are. I think large improvements will be made especially using the suggestions by @Smilesville, and then we can reevaluate the issue.

[kilerbite]

Just now, Rumbunctious said:

Oh, you mean like in real life? If police are worried about getting shot when doing traffic stops, perhaps they should take further precautions to prevent that from happening. Unfortunately though, in my experience the vast majority of cops roleplay with little to no regard for their lives, because again, they'll instantly respawn to continue doing patrols. And then we end up with mindsets such as:

 

redacted has been on patrol for a long time, Rising through the ranks from PI to SGT II, during this time he has been shot twice, stabbed once. He was also trained in Metro under C-Platoon so high risk situations aren't new to him. He thinks the gangs in Davis/Strawberry are a joke and isn't scared of them at all.

 

On that note, I agree with @eyebrows. If you solo patrol into a gang area and get killed, that should be a forced CK. In fact, I think that if you as an LEO approach any situation recklessly and you are killed, you should be forced to CK.

 

 

Situations like this can be reported to PLM/FM/PD Leadership, so they can be solved. If redacted isn't reported, redacted won't learn.

Edited May 23, 2019 by kilerbite

[Jedai]

The likelihood of CKs working in the current environment as listed by many levelheaded parties before is just not feasible in the current climate of the server and the community, especially with a long standing tradition of PKs being the norm. It's apart of the reason why on a previous server, PK wars were never granted because it for the most part lead to mindless farming of each other's factions or 3 people challenging a group of 20+ people and then attempting high speed military operations in an attempt to dismantle an entity bigger than them (no this isn't an exaggeration, people have actually tried it). That being said I do think there needs to be some sort of timeout system for when you do accept death. While personally I think that a timeout of at least 48 hours would suffice, I think 12 would be a reasonable start. The basis is that once you /acceptdeath, that you get put on a timer where the character is no longer active to be used until the timer is up. This would be no different than with a jail timer or when your car gets chopped. 

[Canadian]

6 minutes ago, Rumbunctious said:

Oh, you mean like in real life? If police are worried about getting shot when doing traffic stops, perhaps they should take further precautions to prevent that from happening. Unfortunately though, in my experience the vast majority of cops roleplay with little to no regard for their lives, because again, they'll instantly respawn to continue doing patrols. And then we end up with mindsets such as:

 

redacted has been on patrol for a long time, Rising through the ranks from PI to SGT II, during this time he has been shot twice, stabbed once. He was also trained in Metro under C-Platoon so high risk situations aren't new to him. He thinks the gangs in Davis/Strawberry are a joke and isn't scared of them at all.

 

On that note, I agree with @eyebrows. If you solo patrol into a gang area and get killed, that should be a forced CK. In fact, I think that if you as an LEO approach any situation recklessly and you are killed, you should be forced to CK.

 

 

This isn't real life. You don't see someone reaching. You can't see any of their behaviour. If they want you dead they have a gun in their hand and are already shooting within a second. 

 

And in case you didn't understand. This isn't real life. People come here to have fun and develop a character. Not lose all of that over a small situation. If they're reckless sure but you seemed to have missed my entire point. If police can be put into a situation where they are talking to someone and are shot within a matter of seconds because you can hit tab and a weapon appears in your hand then do you really think that they'll want to spend time developing a character?

[Serpico]

There is literally rules against people not role playing fear, so its a non issue. I do not support a CK for every kill, I support trusting people and allowing admins to do their jobs. LEO's would have nothing to do and probably quit because nothing exciting will happen and lets be real, we're all here to have fun and do things we wouldn't do or be able to do in real life for fun. There has to be a balance between fun and realism, PK's are considered them dying in that particular scene. No need to give griefers tools to have more of an impact. Its not hard for trolls, ban evaders or players who play GTA RP to grief others to join this server just to CK people for fun. In an ideal world yes CKs could be fun and exciting, but this is not an ideal world and it will be abused / cause more issues.

[1357]

It mainly seems to me though that the majority of us are stuck around this idea that the format must be a one time death and the character is gone. 

2 hours ago, HaveADream said:

This is incredibly true, as someone that solely does legal RP and calls PD at every little problem, I have absolutely no interest involving myself in a situation that I can get CK'd. However like I said you can get PK'd for anything, I'd honestly struggle to motivate myself if that lead to a CK after all the work I've done.

But wouldn't you agree that you should have no interest at all? There's a huge influx of players that put themselves in or perform heroic tasks that would realistically put their lives at risk.. but that risk factor is missing because we already know if we die it's only going to result in a PK. 

 

It's an issue with the way the current system handles deaths. It's a fault. There is no real consequence to death and with death comes no true role play afterwards and with this causes players to make indecisive actions more often than not just because it doesn't matter if they die. When i look at players who portray gang members and perform retaliations for example the only thing they're valuing is the 30k gun when instead it should be their life to value. And not every gang member is a sadistic shooter that is willing to take another persons life. 

 

The key point is: We don't necessarily have to make every death transition into a CK.

 

It's clear we all understand that players commit crime over the smallest reasons more often than not and while the same may occur in real life it's different when our player base consists of hardly 300 concurrent players compared to millions.

 

But rules can also be modified to appropriately adjust to such a change as well. PvP would need to be a lot more strict to reflect our small population.

2 hours ago, Caracosa said:

IMO we should focus more on storytelling than living or dying. For me GTAW is more like a novel or movie, not a game. CKs don't always make for a good story. We are like writers/actors. Just because actors aren't risking their lives, doesn't mean they can't "get in character".

What good is a story without an end? The longevity of a persons life determines how they choose to live. A career and hobbies are factors that could determine someones fate.

 

Repeating this: I've played for awhile now and not once throughout my time playing have i encountered someone try to kill me, rob me, or even death matched for that matter. My character is a legal mechanic. It really goes to to show if you're not out looking for danger it's likely to not come back to your doorstep.

 

If a player is surprised they died after willingly deciding to participate in illicit and criminal activity or legal careers that require your life on the line to protect and serve the people than i'm not entirely sure what to tell them. Be more aware and take the extra precautions. 

 

2 hours ago, FullyCanadian said:

The reason I don't want to remove PKs is because of the long term effects. As an LEO RPer, I've been shot a number of times in situations I literally couldn't avoid. For example, one time I was driving along Mirror Park Boulevard and I hear a bunch of shots go off and I see a drive-by. Before I can even react I was being shot at by people riding 4 deep in an SUV and then they chased me down in my last minute attempt to get away from the shooting and call it out. Could you argue this is DM? Sure. They never got punished though so I would've lost my character if PKs didn't exist.

If someone decides to become an LEO there are clear risks that come along with it.

If someone decides to live the street life then they surely are aware that nothing comes from the streets other than prison and death.

 

These are examples of real life people that do this while also understanding the consequences that may follow along.

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The community here is not the problem. We are not the reason the server cannot function off CK only.

 

For example: If we have a player that is consistently shooting at other players day to die or performing multiple homicides daily in single hourly time spans then that player needs to be investigated for poor character quality and if found to be true then handled accordingly and for the players that died to exampled perpetrator should be investigated and potentially brought back from CK due to this players rule breaking and poor character quality and development.

 

If we were putting our trust in the ourselves as regular players we would have no rules, we would have no faction management, we would have no staff management and we would have no administration.

 

We are aiming for realism whether this idea were to become a reality or not and the reality is gang members aren't constantly catching a body every single day or catching 20 bodies a year let alone a handful. There's a rare breed of people who are willing to actually do these things within a gang and it's not anymore than a dozen murders.

 

If you've played on a server that had a similar mechanic and it didn't work.. well why not? Because if i were playing on this server for years and players were dying left and right then something is surely wrong with the administration and management?

 

Just because it didn't work on one server does not mean it cannot work on ours. What other server is there like ours right now that encourages the highest quality role play and character development with our player count while also being a text based ENG role play server? There isn't one and we cannot even achieve the highest quality role play when we're scared of change and too accustomed to a mechanic that has been used and made arguably made role play stale for dozens of years.

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There can be a UCP list for all players who've had their character Character Killed. Something potentially even such as this..

 

If they click on the specified character.. they will be brought to a list of details that include a few of many:

• The player their character was killed by.
• The date of which their character was killed.
• The exact time their character was killed.

Along with an option to have this character reviewed and other specific details as well.

 

Just quick thoughts...

 

About balance.. some of you have brought up a point in which those that participate in legal role play such as LEO for example face a disadvantage compared to the regular civilian and well these are things that can and should be discussed.. How is balance created in the first place..? It takes a group of people to think of a multitude of scenarios and ways to create the fine line but it seems like i'm one of the few people who are actively trying to find ways to make this as balanced as possible to appease all sides while everyone else begins repeating themselves about issues that can just as easily be addressed as balance can.

 

 

 

[Caracosa]

Just now, 1357 said:

What good is a story without an end? The longevity of a persons life determines how they choose to live. A career and hobbies are factors that could determine someones fate.

I'm super confident that most stories don't end with the protagonist dying. My previous character had a happy ending, and it fit thematically with her storyline and character development, so I stopped playing them. I played her for about 3 months and it was very satisfying. I could have also given her a bitter-sweet or melancholy ending without a CK.

[1357]

38 minutes ago, Caracosa said:

I'm super confident that most stories don't end with the protagonist dying. My previous character had a happy ending, and it fit thematically with her storyline and character development, so I stopped playing them. I played her for about 3 months and it was very satisfying. I could have also given her a bitter-sweet or melancholy ending without a CK.

Whether you'd like to admit it or not.. life is a story. Life isn't always a good story for the less fortunate and while a person is able to do the best they can to dictate their odds death is inevitable. That's the story we as players are portraying here.. life is what we are role playing and with life comes death. 

 

To add on to this.. you would still be more than able to stop playing on a character all together. You can role play that you're moving away to another city or you're going on vacation and with this change isn't going to prevent any of these scenarios. But you won't be able to do this in the case you are killed. That's all that changes. You are in control of your life until the moment you are dead.

Edited May 23, 2019 by 1357

[Arthur]

I think some of you are blinded by the advantages this system provides, and don't pause to consider the possible implications it could have on your experience and the community. Consider a potential loss of players, a fatiguing and drained of joy community, the basic In Character conflicts transform into ego-driven conflicts on an Out of Character level with a continuous involvement from the staff team.

 

Bottom line, that's a lot of power for the average player to have, a decent chunk of the players refuse to accept a mere Player Kill in a sportive manner, let alone a Character Kill.

 

I believe the server is good as it is, players don't seem to have a trigger happy mentality, at least from my experience. I guess it depends on who you associate yourself with.

[1357]

47 minutes ago, Arthur said:

I think some of you are blinded by the advantages this system provides, and don't pause to consider the possible implications it could have on your experience and the community. Consider a potential loss of players, a fatiguing and drained of joy community, the basic In Character conflicts transform into ego-driven conflicts on an Out of Character level with a continuous involvement from the staff team.

 

Bottom line, that's a lot of power for the average player to have, a decent chunk of the players refuse to accept a mere Player Kill in a sportive manner, let alone a Character Kill.

 

I believe the server is good as it is, players don't seem to have a trigger happy mentality, at least from my experience. I guess it depends on who you associate yourself with.

There's advantages and disadvantages to just about everything and that includes the system we and every other server use now. I truthfully believe it will become very apparent which players decide to treat this server like a DM free for all and ego trip in finding any small reason to cap another player and those players wouldn't last very long with the proper staffing and management. 

 

Lets look at LEO role play. Shoot outs and high speed pursuits but what about when they die? For example they're provided with high tier weaponry, high hourly paychecks(?) and higher up access to HSIU vehicles and none of these advantages come at a risk.. whereas with civilians they will only worry about who they're going to get ahold of to dish out another 30 grand when they decide to get into an altercation with the cops.

 

Death has no relevance on the server.. this is something we've all come to agreement with for the most part. It's a huge problem and in return reflects on the actions a majority of players make and cannot blame them. There's two thought processes that go into a person who role plays a criminal and will be caught by the police:

1. I will try and escape.
2. If not, thankfully i have this gun to use my free get out of jail card and respawn.

This is because the way the system currently works encourages this type of role play.

 

Death does not have to transition immediately into a CK.

 

Again.. death does not have to transition immediately into a CK and for the players who ego trip their actions will speak volumes. It will become so obvious and they won't last long. I guarantee it. 

 

There can be account marks for every player within the UCP. These marks will account for every death issued to another player. We don't want to be looking at players that withhold over 10+ deaths in short intervals and anything over that becomes ridiculous and should be brought in to question. Is any of this possible to create.. I am not sure but these are just rough ideas to combat these types of players.

 

All deaths starts to matter.

 

And: Death does not have to transition immediately into a CK. There are ideas again that we as a community can come up with to make it more forgiving. It's now been made very clear that an advantageous system like this comes with complications but there are ways to make these complications as less pronounced as possible.

 

19 hours ago, MrDanzo3000 said:

That's just called Bad roleplaying. You should roleplay sadness, loss, and grief without the OOC influence of "They'll be back later". Also, I've never seen any killers who show an ounce of emotion when killing someone for scratching their car, or apparently selling an xbox.

It has nothing to do with bad role playing.. it's just something a player cannot role play because loss is non existent excluding the rare exception of players that decide to CK their characters.