PK and CK

[1357]

Hi,

 

I am curious how many people share the same belief as me relating to PK and CK..?

 

For me personally, i believe that we should stray away from PK as a whole because of many reasons. If you will allow me to elaborate on why:

 

GTA World is advertised as a heavy role play server and while i believe 'heavy' and 'hardcore' are separate and unique to their own we should also transition into a heavy and hardcore role play server. This would make GTA World a lot more unique than any other role play server that has ever existed. 

 

If we are a hardcore role play server.. this means that PK would or at least should no longer exist. If PK is removed.. this means we are left with CK. This brings a whole new level and immersive experience to roleplay that no server currently offers. Death. As of right now, if a player dies there are no real consequences to it. You aren't OOCly charged any money.. you only lose what's in your inventory and then brush it off and continue on as if you didn't die a few seconds ago.. essentially forgetting anything that happened within the last 5 minutes or so..

 

So let me discuss the benefits and drawbacks of each one.. so first I will discuss PK.

---

Benefits

• You only lose what's in your inventory upon death, your character and everything else remains.
• You are allowed to continue on so long as you forget anything that happened prior to leading up to your death.
• It grants permanent long term character progression.

Drawbacks

• There are no real consequences to death, so fearing death is merely abiding to rules and nothing more.
• It allows characters to make brash decisions even if attains to the rules.
• Whenever you see a character you've met in a critical state, there is no real emotion. This means, other aspects that relate to real life such as grieving are non existent.
• It creates awkward moments in the scenario you see a close friend or relative die but role play with that same person moments later because due to PK it supposedly never happened.

Now we can move on to CK

---

Benefits

• Seeing a close friend or relative in a near death situation or in critical state opens up role play to a whole new level that has never been experienced before. This is because.. if that player dies they will no longer exist - just as real life works. So if you've enjoyed role playing with that character specifically.. you will likely have some sort of sentimental value attached to that player which in return will make you feel a certain type of way or otherwise conflicted with real world results.
• Crime rate may be decreased due to the realistic consequences that a player should face if they die. 
• To further expand on the second point, players will now have to think twice if they want to participate in actions that could end in them being killed, where otherwise it would not be in the question because of PK existing.
• There are real consequences that a player now faces, so even ooc you may fear death just as most people would in real life.
• Those awkward moments associated with PK no longer exist.
• The player you killed no longer exists. If you are retaliated upon, that player will not be able to participate because they are dead forcibly. 
• This may grant and provide a sense of real life adrenaline and thrill that real life people may experience when killing someone. (e.g gang beefs, murderers)

Drawbacks

• Death is permanent. If you die, you lose potentially everything related to your character. Your character no longer exists in GTA World resulting in you starting over on a new character.
• Long term progression is not guaranteed. 
• Administration may be overloaded.

To add on to this.. maybe even sentences such a 45 to life to be introduced in the case a player is caught once a prison system is introduced. With all of this, it will change the server up so much i believe.. crime and death will be interesting. News will be interesting.. especially if the dead player body script is introduced into the server..

 

Now i'd like to have the communities thoughts on all of this.. do you think this would be an interesting change? Yes or no.. and why? 

Edited May 22, 2019 by 1357

[HaveADream]

I'm against this.

 

I only RP Legal RP, so the only time I was ever PK'd was due to a sync error in a robbery situation. If I had lost my character then, I'd have probably lost a lot of motivation altogether due to the development I had already invested in my character. As is stands, Character Kills are avoided and used as a last resort, requiring a very good reason because Player Kills can be done for no good reason, at times due to misunderstandings, due to the withdrawal of information, due to the inability to properly have an admin there at all times. There's an appeal process, sure, but, as much as I respect the admins, I doubt even they'd say that the right decisions had been made 100% in any form of a report, then what's the case? Character has gone for no good reason, why would you keep playing?

 

Character Kills being much, much more frequent in the fashion you describe will terminate pretty much all long term roleplay, what if I write an article that someone doesn't like? Boom, Saints News is gone. Same with Weazel, same with R&R. That's one of the consequences of this. Los Santos Police Department? Everyone will be a student. Gangs? No proper hierarchy. Problem is, you need to think about why you want to force a character to go away for good, and if it's not a good enough reason, no dice. This will completely fuck with that, you could lose everything over a bar fight.

 

Player kills are very frequent, if they all turned into character kills, I don't see this improving the server, I see the server becoming a case of the last man standing.

 

I get the intentions, but I completely disagree.

[Nervous]

I agree with you regarding PKs dying as a concept on RP servers (especially this one) however I do not agree with you on the server being defined as heavy, hard, hardcore, husky or any other SAMP era label. 

 

The heavy RP scale is literally meaningless when voice servers where a 12 year old boy RPs as a 56 year old black female drug lord define themselves as one. 

 

Our server is simple a text based RP server with high standards. This assures we're not on some weird scale as other GTA RP servers which no one can define aside from hopefully not being compared to other 'heavy' RP standards servers.

 

ANYWAY, about CKs killing off PKs. 

 

This has to happen on a server like ours. HOPEFULLY we'll become a leading example for other servers who were thinking to adopt a system where PKs are non existent (Unless an admin decided you died due to a bug or whatnot). 

 

Consequences have lost all meaning when PKs were adopted by RP servers. Most people do not care about being threatened. They don't care when you chase them, they don't care about running around with heavy firearms 24/7 and they certainly don't care about going balls deep into any situation with a gun. 

 

You die, you lose a bit of money or your gun at worst so naturally whoever isn't really into portraying their character realistically (which should literally be every player on this server but let's be real, even with FM and PLM around this isn't a perfect server and it never will be) will not think twice before being beaten up or even killed. 

 

This also results in a lot of minor issues which mostly cause players to act like morons ICly based on this OOC barrier which prevents them from dying. 

 

If CKs are adopted INSTEAD of PKs and not as some sort of solution for certain situations, people will suddenly start thinking twice before acting tough, before going balls deep into literally every situation and will generally start showing legit fear of losing their character's life which is what their character should be feeling in most cases. 

 

And if the player doesn't care about being CK'ed? That's great, that's on him ICly. You wanna risk it all? You can and you'll pay for it in most cases which is GREAT because this is how you create a meaningful environment for your character. 

 

Suddenly your friends start dying. People around you suddenly show legit concern when you're about to check out. People actually start planning shit instead of making another video of them shooting someone. 

 

I can promise you I'll do anything and everything I can to adopt CKs as the main death mechanic of this server (with obvious exceptions for bugs and other OOC issues). 

 

In all honesty, I'm glad this is coming from a community member and not only admins. Having players who want to remove dinosaur SAMP systems and OOC barriers which somehow became the norm on most servers and really push realism to its limits is exactly what this server needs. Great fucking idea. 

[JustAnM43]

As much as I want to agree with you, I simply can't. As Ethanol said this isn't a perfect server and never will be. This means robberies are going to be happening a lot as per usual, you'll be targeted a lot as it already happens and I've seen people get killed for the silliest reasons that admins allowed for whatever reason. I don't know about you, but spending 8 months on roleplaying a character only to get killed for a silly reason and having to restart my entire character all over again? I'm no genius, but that won't help the playerbase out at all. Matter of fact, I'm sure it would push it away. I don't think anyone wants to work, come home, RP, rinse repeat for a while and then suddenly come home one day and get CK'd for some reason. I don't know about you, but that would definitely push me away from RP. Mind you, this can also happen no matter what you do, and no matter how legal your character is.

 

You still have robbery squads that go around itching for gunfights, and admins can't clock them because they hide it very well and create scenarios that they know they tell can tell  an admin to make sense so they get the "go ahead" for it and clear the situation without admin punishment.

 

Overall, I do see your points, but I don't think this would work well on GTA:W. It would deter people from joining and demotivate people developing characters for the most part. It also won't stop DM videos, it'll only promote them, because people can now flaunt how they "CK'd that guy, and CK'd that guy." It's a never-ending circle. Is it a heavy RP server? Yes. Should we take it to the extreme where every single death is a CK? No. Cause you'd have about 20 CK's a day.

 

Issue is, GTA:W is small. In real life, you can life a happy life without ever running into a murderer, mobster, mugger, you get my point. On GTA:W, you're bound to do it eventually because even though it's a pretty big playerbase, it's not that big so you're eventually going to run into something that can fuck you over, no matter how small it is and no matter how legal you RP.

 

I'm personally OK with people asking for CK's during properly RP'd scenarios and requesting CK's, but forced CK's on every kill? That's taking it too far.

[1357]

1 hour ago, Ethanol said:

.

Wasn't expecting this type of response. ?

 

For the other posts that understand the intentions and reasoning behind the suggestion.. would you suppose a more lenient system is put in place while still assuring the character is lost would be more appropriate? For starters, a quick example.. character loss + 25% assets and so on. So, with 25% total assets lost, you would retain 75% on a new character. Something on this scale that would make it slightly more forgiving and less demotivating? 

 

I do agree that this is a harsh system but it would open up and evolve role play where it hasn't yet like i've mentioned with any other server and in theory will make things a lot more interesting for all sides. I am sure we can come to some agreement where a majority agree to completely exile PK so this suggestion can become a reality for the server. This is also something i wanted to add on to, it doesn't necessarily have to CK and total loss of assets.. there are ways around this while still keeping the suggestion in itself.. we just have to think of that ourselves. 

 

I mention:

• Administration may be overloaded.

Because of these small issues which in turn result in extreme outcomes. I personally believe with the proper administration and management this can be evened out with good measures set in place.

 

 

Quote

 It would deter people from joining and demotivate people developing characters for the most part. It also won't stop DM videos, it'll only promote them, because people can now flaunt how they "CK'd that guy, and CK'd that guy."

Yes i can see how this could potentially negatively impact the player count and even create rage inducing moments within the player base.. but i still imagine the positives drastically outweigh the negatives..

 

For those who would flaunt about killing another player.. these are likely among the players who entertain the idea of gang role play and while you agree that this wouldn't remove it.. i also believe it wouldn't exacerbate it anymore than how it is now. This isn't something that would be newly introduced if this would ever make it into the server because it already exists with how the current system is set up. If anything.. it would only make gang beef more entertaining wouldn't you agree? @JustAnM43

 

I don't necessarily find this to be an issue more than it would just be viewed as crazy..

 

I know it's difficult to mimic important aspects of real life with a server that only consists of around 100-290 players but this suggestion can give a QoL update to experience role play in a different light and how much more interesting it could be. From news reporting deaths, to valuing your character and others you meet and genuinely enjoy the company of overall including even those you despise..

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 22, 2019 by 1357

[Cranky]

This is definitely something to think over. You guys are all making good points.

[HaveADream]

@Rumbunctious made a very good point - people will and have died for really stupid reasons, and for that, you'd lose everything for it. I know there are plenty of people here that are okay with the risks of crime and pissing people off, but what about those that aren't? I'm not talking about gangbangers that are simply just doing crime sprees until someone stops them, more about people that are actively trying to live legally, as a normal civilian without the bells and whistles you find in illegal and PD RP. 

 

It's not a case of "people will think about consequences before doing things" it's that people will just stop doing things altogether, how many shootings have there been at nightclubs? Even if the reason was legit, what if you get hit a stray bullet? If you're a fledging journalist trying to start your own outlet and you come across something that incriminates a group of people, they could just walk right into your office and ensure your outlet lies dormant. What if, as @Rumbunctious said, you hit a guys sports car? 

 

It's also not a case of just transferring assets over either, people get attached to the characters themselves. I've known a few people who have been forcibly CK'd, their response wasn't "Ah, well, I can just transfer." It's "I've lost over a thousand hours of character development, the relationships, the memories, the build-up, all of that for a reason that isn't really legit." How do you transfer a nightclub, a beach house, a gym, a news outlet, to a random character who had absolutely no association with your previous character? 

 

Put it this way, if Kalani got CK'd tomorrow, I wouldn't be upset about losing my car, I'd be upset about losing Saints, I'd be upset about having to start from scratch with all the relationships I had with other companies, I'd be upset about losing Kalani over a reason which, as far as I can think of right now, doesn't exist, it's why I actually don't do investigative journalism with Saints, in attempts to not piss people off.

 

I get the intentions are good and I do agree to a large extent it will really improve roleplay quality and will make people actively fear for their lives, but we really wouldn't be the first server to try it. Others have, but they didn't last very long after that, I just can't see a way for long term development of, well, pretty much anything, character stories, businesses, factions, to survive. There's always going to be someone wanting to kill you, and if nobody wants to kill you, be yourself and you'll find that they do. The server relies on heavy RP, but not everybody is up to that standard, we're not a perfect server at all, and mistakes, poor RP, stupid kills, they'll all still happen, it'll just happen in a way to piss people off.

 

Again, I really, really do want to see this as it'll work - however, it'll only work in a perfect (gta) world (Haha), which I don't think we are, and I don't think anybody thinks we are.

 

Italics denote an edit.

 

Edited May 22, 2019 by HaveADream

[Bospy]

I am certainly for CKs dependent on circumstance if the namechange is free of charge. Having to buy a namechange after a natural CK would be annoying, especially if it's an everyday thing. It's certainly a great way for the server to earn money, but it will drain people's wallets dependent on the circumstances of death.

[Westen]

How do we plan to address these CKs then, if CKs replace the current PKing mechanic when you die? /report every time you kill someone and have that admin investigate and then CK then, or replace the current death script with an automatic CK?

 

What happens if, say, I'm on a traffic stop and someone rolls up and guns me down then drives away, ignoring my PMs as to why I was killed? I don't know if I was DMed, I have absolutely zero way of finding out. But if I'm automatically Cked there and then and it's found I was DMed, is my character rolled back?

 

What if there are no admins available to handle my CK? Do I just have to namechange?

 

What about cops that are CKed? Do they change rank or just namechange into a different character at the same rank?

 

 

 

[Gryffin]

As someone who's played in private WoW RP servers with this system, I'm positive it wouldn't go well. 

It doesn't matter how good the community is, it doesn't matter how small or big it is either, gank squads will emerge based solely on the idea of "hey, let's go kill some people to ruin their days lol we're on alts it doesn't matter if we die". And as @JustAnM43 said, they'll come up with ways to do it without getting any admin punishment. 

Request CKs if the whole situation was done properly and for good reason. That's the ideal way to go about it, IMO.